Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by colemj

I think you have a bit of an obsession with him. You seem to see him, and attribute things to him, everywhere.

Are you one of his followers?

Mark

That is funny!! OK I admit it I am a follower, I've tried to quit and have even gone through a 10 step program of factor tours at HR, Oyster and Contest but I still can't seem to stop my deep desire to own a Hunter. Smack is like a god to me and leads me in places I have never been, its like I can't seem to get through a day without his guidance!
I'm going to give it another try, tomorrow!!

[colemj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

That is funny!! OK I admit it I am a follower, I've tried to quit and have even gone through a 10 step program of factor tours at HR, Oyster and Contest but I still can't seem to stop my deep desire to own a Hunter. Smack is like a god to me and leads me in places I have never been, its like I can't seem to get through a day without his guidance!
I'm going to give it another try, tomorrow!!

There is another poster on this thread, Jon Eisberg, who can sponsor you in your rehab. He shook a similar monkey off his back a few years ago.

Although seeing him pop up on CF inside Smackdaddy threads may suggest he has found a new addiction...

Mark

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by colemj

Again, there is absolutely no evidence of this except for the title of the thread.

Also missing in this discussion are the more honorable ways the other 7 (presumably non-Hunter) boats were lost.

And then we have thrown in now the sinking of a boat in its slip due to being the wrong kind of boat - when it is obvious the entire bow has been chewed off by a cement pier independent of any cleats, etc.

Agendas here are sooooo transparent.

Mark

In the photo, the floundering Hunter is surrounded by older powerboats which are still afloat. No agenda.... just sighting the obvious

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

In the photo, the floundering Hunter is surrounded by older powerboats which are still afloat. No agenda.... just sighting the obvious

And leaving out the obvious fact that 7 other boats also sunk?

While throwing in a red herring about older powerboats still floating (do you know that all the Hunters in that harbor sunk, and that all the powerboats are still floating? Because any Hunters still floating, or powerboats sunk, would really look bad for your logic and reasoning capacities.).

And attributing that Hunter sinking to deck cleat failure?

And pulling in unrelated incidents of similar boats in a lake having their bows chewed off and sinking?

Doesn't past the smell test.

Mark

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by colemj

And leaving out the obvious fact that 7 other boats also sunk?

While throwing in a red herring about older powerboats still floating (do you know that all the Hunters in that harbor sunk, and that all the powerboats are still floating? Because any Hunters still floating, or powerboats sunk, would really look bad for your logic and reasoning capacities.).

And attributing that Hunter sinking to deck cleat failure?

And pulling in unrelated incidents of similar boats in a lake having their bows chewed off and sinking?

Doesn't past the smell test.

Mark

Give him a break Mark, Ken is simply displaying the same logic as Smack does when he critique's a situation. Remember when Ken's Hunter had keel issues Smack shows a picture of an Oyster that had floundered on the rocks. Where is the connection???????There is no logic of course and it drags the debate down to a level of teenagers so Ken is simply replying in kind and that is understandable.

[sailorboy1]

My Hunter rode out Hurricane Sandy out on a mooring. The boat took the 5,000 lb mooring block for a drag trip and of course the cleats held just fine. There is even video of the boat next to me during the storm where you can see just how much pitching the boat was experiencing.

So to say there is some big Hunter cleat problem is pretty much a story.

The boat in the photo is a newer model and I bet the backing plates for the cleats are glassed into the deck, the same as all the deck fittings on the boat as that is the standard construction method. Also I would bet the cleat is right above the anchor locker, so even if it were to rip out and leak the water just goes into the anchor locker and drains out the drains. In the photo the Hunter's bow is in the water, if the bow allowed water to fill the boat it would be on the bottom.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

It really is weird isn't it? It makes you wonder what they are afraid of.

In an effort to sound authoritative and thereby bolster some self-esteem issue, they end up only showing how little they know. And always the same guys. You'd think they have better self-awareness by now to figure out they sound foolish but,...guess not.

We've already read here how one of these types can't supportwhat he states as declarative fact. Hopefully, everyone else recognizes this guy and his colleagues for what they are and ignore them.

I had a Hunter 40.5 prior to our current boat. Both use the exact same method and hardware to attach cleats. I don't think anyone in their 'right' mind would criticize Alden building methods. Apparently beneteau is the only large boat builder which does not properly secure hardware but they have bigger flaws.

[wgewaldii]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Don't understand how snapping a bow cleat sank the boat. If the cleat snapped, the boat lost the mooring line and blew ashore that would be easy but it looks like the boat is still attached to the mooring and sank there.

If the cleat snapped how was the mooring line attached?

How did the water enter the boat due to broken cleat on the deck?

So, what happened exactly?

Does the Hunter have an outboard motor well? I had a boat almost sink from taking water by that route.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

In an effort to sound authoritative and thereby bolster some self-esteem issue, they end up only showing how little they know.

You mean comments like this from Smackdaddy?

Neil - I fully understand backing plates. Generally, they are a great idea. But there is also a point when they may not make sense from a structural perspective. In other words, had I had a big SS backing plate on the cleat on my C27 - would it have saved the boat? No. The intended use for that C27 cleat is not to hold the sunken boat vertically to the dock by the dockline. It's to hold the floating boat in the slip or hold it to an anchor. I suppose I could beef everything up to try to handle the sunken hang scenario, but that doesn't make a lot sense does it?

And your example of the traveler pulling through on the Dufor - would it have potentially caused more structural damage in that accidental gybe if there had been a backing plate? Or are you convinced there would have been absolutely no damage whatsoever to the surrounding structure had there been a backing plate with the same forces?

Like I said before when we discussed this before - it all depends on the intended use. There are many considerations in dealing with loads in boats. Sometimes "Mickey Mouse Washers" can actually make sense.

Maybe the following comments by Minaret in his dialogue with Neil will sound more authoritative to you, or do you think it's just career yard guys trying to bolster their self-esteem?

Just one more time-the idea that deck cleats have a designed failure point or "fuse" is madness. People die when deck cleats fail, its shockingly common. I personally saw the harbor patrol guys pick up the body last time it happened outside our marina; boat under tow, cheap bow cleat install with no backing plate, man on stern of tow boat looking aft took a 10" deck cleat in the chest on the end of 50' of heavy tow line. Might as well have been a cannonball, instant death. Proper deck cleat backing is serious life or death business, there is no room for confusion in this.

I certainly understand your reasoning. And I too have seen plenty of exactly what you speak of, ie fender washers for backing plates. I'm guessing its 1 above [cheap mfg.] as I'm sure the manufacturers are well aware of the liability in this. Just want to be extremely clear, no room for ambiguity in it. Deck hardware MUST stay attached, and cleats in particular can be very very dangerous. I know you are well aware of the risks, just don't want anyone who may not be to allow Smack to cause them to end up thinking that fender washer backing plates might be a good idea-it could honestly get someone killed.

[papasan]

I was on Catalina that day. For three weeks we planned to go around the island -Emerald Bay (North side) - Little harbor (back side) - Avalon last day (the storm). One crew could not buy fins on the way down from Oakland so the night before we left we decided to go clockwise around instead - to Avalon first where he could buy fins then around the other way. Nice trip. A rough crossing with two scared crew but no real problems.

I have an 87 Pacific Seacraft with very, very stout backing plates but i have no idea how I could have possibly gotten out of there safe if we had followed the initial plan. I was moored two days earlier where all that sinking and rock crashing was going on. There are conditions that could sink any boat. We buy what we can afford that meets the conditions we usually expect to see.

I feel much safer on my Pacific Seacraft than on the 405 in my car. I still drive much more than I sail. Buy what works for you.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, guys,

It seems that we - collectively - have no idea why the unfortunate Hunter sank at Avalon.

Ooookay, now that the Hunter afficionados and bashers have finished for the moment, does anyone have any ideas about how to find out what actually caused the poor thing to sink? I, for one, would be interested to know...

Ann

[smackdaddy]

Okay Keno - I'll try once again...with some seriousness...or at least as much as I can muster.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I believe I brought some "factual information" and "actual hands-on experience" to the forum during a recent anchor thread regarding anchoring in LA harbor during a two day Santa Ana wind storm just like the one being described on this thread and how my Hunter 450 felt like it was coming apart as I was being tossed around inside the boat from side to side with cushions flying about. I also described the same scenario on my Hunter when I was anchored just 10 miles down the coast of Catalina at a relatively calm anchorage.

Smack, you were the one repeatedly poking fun at my lack of seamanship and poor anchoring ability.

Here is what you said in that thread (edited for brevity - you can click on the arrow beside your name to see the whole post if you'd like):

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Our Hunter used to sound like it was falling apart even while it was sitting at anchor rocking in the waves, the bulkheads make loud banging and popping noises, cushions and all kinds of stuff being flung from one side of the boat to the other. High freeboard meant the boat would rock with increased intensity and amount just while sitting there on the hook. Our friend's Hunter 450 did the same.... he sold his last year too, due to lack of confidence in the boat following eight years of ownership (his made the same noises and had the same quality issues).

How is the damn thing falling apart while at anchor "dependent on the sailor?"

I definitely expressed doubt (as did several others) that your situation was factually as bad as you painted it above. You then went on to post this:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

One time when the seat cushions and people were violently being thrown about was on the eastern (sheltered) side of Catalina Island, CA off Emerald Bay in our Hunter 450. It was a very calm night except for the 3ft swell rolling into the bay from the north east, almost glassy. Then the light 5mph wind changed and began coming from a more north westerly direction, placing us parallel to the swells.

Then this:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You're anchored in a secure anchorage, then the wind shifts 90 degrees or dies completely.... your boat is now facing parallel to the 1 meter swell. In the Hunter 450, everything including the people end up being launched across the boat due to the high freeboard, shallow draft keel.

First, I assume you chose to anchor where you did, when you did, in the conditions you were cognizant of. How is the result of these choices in any way the boat's fault?

Furthermore, I know a lot of Hunter owners. Not a single one of them have ever complained about "their boats coming apart and people and stuff being flung all the way across the cabin" at anchor (unless in a huge storm). "Rolly", yes - definitely. Uncomfortable, yes - definitely. Destructive and life threatening? Never. You are the first. So, given your continual and very out-spoken dislike of Hunters - I take what you say with a HUGE grain of salt.

Add to that your attitude when someone I personally know who has a great deal of cruising experience tries to give you some advice on how to handle such a situation and you come back at him with this:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Been there, done that multiple times.... it doesn't work.

Then when he explains that, in fact, he has done it very successfully many times, and provides some additional tips for you, here is your reply:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We've also tried this method multiple times with very limited and brief moments of success. The problem is....

...and my favorite part...

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Leave the comfort of your local cruising area sometime, you'll find that it's not always so easy to know where to go or where to anchor safe and comfortably.

You obviously don't know who you were talking to. I do. So, in this long exchange - either you're infallible, or you just might be doing it wrong.

When I take in all of the facts above, it's very hard for me to blame Hunter for your issues.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You're quite the hypocrite. I point out the shortcomings of my boat to educate others... people like you.

Are you not continually pointing out the "shortcomings" of every Hunter out there? No offense, but I'm just not interested in your education, Keno. I can't take it seriously.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Is this thread going to FINALLY hit home that some Hunters are built with shoddy workmanship and poor quality parts and design? What's it going to take to convince you?

More facts and less hyperbole.

[Greatketch33]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Hi, guys, It seems that we - collectively - have no idea why the unfortunate Hunter sank at Avalon. Ooookay, now that the Hunter afficionados and bashers have finished for the moment, does anyone have any ideas about how to find out what actually caused the poor thing to sink? I, for one, would be interested to know... Ann

Me too. Too much talk about one particular type of boat on thread - IMHO.

What can we learn from this tragedy?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Hi, guys,

It seems that we - collectively - have no idea why the unfortunate Hunter sank at Avalon.

Ooookay, now that the Hunter afficionados and bashers have finished for the moment, does anyone have any ideas about how to find out what actually caused the poor thing to sink? I, for one, would be interested to know...

Ann

I was curious too, along with the other 7 sinkings. Tried a quick Google search but I'm not as patient with that as some. Too bad the OP hasn't followed up.

[Chrisgo]

Here is an excerpt from the manual of a 33 Hunter, 2005. The vessel in the original post looks to be one generation older, and a somewhat larger.

Hunter makes it quite clear what the breaking strength of the cleat is, (8947.4 Pf), and also interestingly, states that the strength of lines/chains shall not exceed 80% of the breaking point of the cleat. I believe this is to move the failure point to the line/chain, which is to say that if the boat is about to break loose, it stands a better chance of survival with the hull being intact.

The manual does not indicate the presence of backing plates.

Can anyone post the breaking points of a more stout boat for discussion?