Were classic cruisers built with short masts?

[bemao]

I am looking at buying a Baba 35. Unfortunately (as far as I'm concerned), the current owner removed the bowsprit so that the boat could fit in a smaller slip. If I were to buy this boat, I would want to restore the bowsprit and the original sail plan. With this in mind, I called my local rigger for an estimate.

The rigger I called is the same one that removed the bowsprit originally, so he is familiar with the boat. He mentioned that, in addition to removing the sprit, he installed a mast that is 3' taller than the original design. According to him, most cruisers built in this era (laste 70s and 80s), were build with short masts and would only sail well in high-wind areas (the idea was that off-shore cruisers would not want to reef, and so the short mast was an advantage). Since I live in SoCal, according to the rigger, the more sail area the better (to a point, obviously). He informed me that the only downside with the taller rig was that I would have to reef earlier in high-wind. Apart from that, the boat, as rigged, would point higher, sail faster, and be all-around a better boat.

I'm not sure how to take this assessment. Is it true that the 70s/80s bluewater cruisers have short masts by today's standards? I find that I little hard to believe. On the other hand, 40 years have passed since this boat was designed, so it wouldn't surprise me that there were some design limitations in the late 70s that no longer exist, and the 'short mast' is a result.

[Nicholson58]

Does it have a cutter. Consider adding a cutter and keeping the tall rig.

[keepondancin]

Generally older boats have a lower aspect sail plan. I would certainly sail it before buying it. One would wonder how the center of effort changed, and how it would affect it's handling. It seems as if it would take more than a taller mast to adjust for such a radical change. You wouldn't want to end up with a boat with severe lee helm that you couldn't tack, nor with so much weather helm that you had to give so much rudder that you were in reality stepping on the breaks. I would consult with a designer like Robert Perry, who may have done the design. Others more technical than I will surely jump in, but think about it. Reducing the fore triangle is moving the center of effort back, producing weather helm. A taller mast with a larger main also moves the CE aft, adding to the weather helm. You may be reefing earlier not to reduce healing, but to move the CE forward so you can attempt to balance the rig. What you have going for you is the long full keel. Just my thoughts.

[rbk]

The above is more of a generalization of an era. The Baba 35 will surprise you in light air and keep you comfortable well into weather where others are hiding. This isn’t a full keel, but a modified keel with a relatively high aspect ratio (when weight isnt considered) As mentioned, take it out and see for yourself. The riggers claims are over exagerated, it is a surprisingly fast boat with the original rig.

[Suijin]

You're rigger may be correct that heavy boats of that era have generally shorter masts than boats of of the last 10 years, but I think his reasoning is wrong.

First of all, you may notice that many of those older boats (like mine) have much lower booms and so more main down low. Many modern boats have higher booms to accommodate dodgers, biminis, connectors and who knows what else. It's convenient.

Also, true cutter rigs, like the Baba, have the masts placed well aft of where you see them on modern boats. They have smaller mains and as designed, the "topsail" high cut yankee and a staysail. It's a lot of sail area forward of the mast.

Also many of these newer boats have much higher freeboard. Between that and the higher booms and less jib area the difference is not as much as you'd think.

Three feet? Not a big deal. Restoring the bowsprit is a smart move. Bob Perry learned a few things along the way and one of them was how to balance a boat better. The Valiant 42 was an evolution of the 40, with the addition of the bowsprit and a taller mast designed to decrease weather helm, based on how most people sailed the boat. I'm going to bet most Baba owners would be happy with an additional three feet, provided they knew how to trim a boat and keep her on her feet.

Keep the tall mast (and of course the sails cut for it) and reef a bit earlier. Learn how to trim your main with twist and it won't be a problem. As the rigger says, maybe you reef a bit earlier. And maybe you sail higher by a bit and faster in light airs. Also, you can always shorten the mast in future if you don't like how she sails, but it's a lot of work, moving hardware, the boom, recutting rigging etc. Only do it after you have enough experience with the boat to determine it's necessary. I suspect that day will never come.

[rbk]

I’ll also add that most Tayana 37 (very similar boat) keep a permanent reef in the main in all but the lightest conditions and a lot of owners have shortened the boom and permanently reduced the size of the main and given more clearance to the helm and cockpit.

[Jim Cate]

A couple of thoughts:

First, I'd try sailing the boat as is. having a bit more sail area in the main isn't going to screw up the balance noticeably. I suspect that the foresail was also made taller, and if not, simply getting a full hoist genoa would balance out the increase in the main, and give even more SA. Putting the bowsprit back will be expensive, require new or recut foresails and increase your marina bill (likely). Can't see much of an advantage in that plan myself.

Second, having more SA to play with in SoCal is definitely a good thing. The winds ARE pretty light much of the time, and the greater horsepower will extend the sailing hours and reduce the motoring hours. If you need to reef a little sooner, so what? A small price to pay, especially if you consider that you will eventually need to reef if the wind continues to build... and you will have done it sooner and in less of a seaway.

As to the riggers view of design history, well, perhaps interesting but of little importance to your decision about mast height, etc.

Jim

[Dsanduril]

Sailed out of Long Beach for a long time. It is/was quite common in SoCal to put on a taller rig or get the tall rig option (if offered from the factory). SoCal is predominantly light wind sailing and many older boats that have spent their life there will have tall rigs. Many of the exact same boats from the San Francisco area will have shorter rigs because the summer breeze there is typically quite stiff.

Lots of tall rig boats from SoCal have sailed the oceans, but yes, you may find yourself reefing sooner than your short-rigged brethren. It wouldn't turn me off, just a piece of the puzzle that you have to sort and decide for yourself.

[bemao]

Thanks, all! This is super helpful. I wasn't sure how delicately the sail plan of the boat was balanced. Sounds like the situation isn't so dire/may even be a good thing.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, bemao.

[Tetepare]

The Pacific Seacraft 35 next to my Catalina 30TR mast height above water is about the same.

[Bill O]

You may want to contact Bob Perry to get his thoughts if the bow sprit is needed.

Based on this review of the Baba 35 the yankee/stays'l is a recommended combination for the boat and therefore would say the sprit is useful.

The other real obvious way to see if the sprit is useful, would be to see if you could go out for a sail (not just a few minutes during a sea trial) before you purchase to to see how the boat/sail plan balances w/o the sprit.

Our boat was originally designed w/o a sprit, but the original owner wanted one when the boat was assembled. Having sailed both versions (w/ and w/o sprit), I will say the sprit is helpful and balances the sail plan.


Bill O.

[Dooglas]

By all means, sail the boat before buying. The whole point of the Baba 35 design was a cutter rigged cruiser with an easy to handle sail plan. I'm surprised anyone would convert the boat to a conventional masthead rig without bowsprit in order for it "to fit in their slip". I'd think the cost of adding a bowsprit again and a whole new sail plan would take quite a bit of the bloom off whatever is the asking price of the boat. And, yes, contact Robert Perry concerning this design and the likely consequences of modifications. It is fortunate that you are considering a boat where the original designer is readily available. The other question I suppose should be asked - If you want a tail rig with a narrow main and a large roller furling genoa, why not look for one instead of a modified cutter rig boat with a cruising keel?

[SV Bacchus]

If you really want to put the sprit back on maybe you should consider a folding sprit? Bacchus has one and it is the best of both worlds, sprit is there when you need it and cheaper marina bills when it is folded away.

Yes, a little more work to put it out and rig it up but the more times I do it the better and quicker I get.

[Sailmonkey]

Unless the tall rig has been moved fwd on the step to offset the loss of the sail area lost fwd, I can see this boat having severe weather helm.

But there are other forces at work, and it may sail fine.