Bluewater Beneteau

[Steadman Uhlich]

Are Production Boats Fit for Bluewater Voyages?

The question of whether Beneteau boats or ANY brand "Production Boats" are fit or adequate or good enough for "Bluewater" voyaging has been discussed many times before, and at great length in one particular thread here on CF.

That previous discussion has 76 pages with 1170 comment posts, including the opinions of members who sail production boats, members who have circumnavigated or gone long distances in them, and other members who see or have seen weaknesses and shortcomings in them. In other words, you will see opinions vary greatly on this topic.

Within that thread are many opinions, descriptions of current and recent production boats, issues regarding construction quality, materials used, certifications, and some success and some horror stories. In the thread you will find mention of known problems, common issues, some fixes, and success stories. There are many photos, with some descriptions of boat brands that may be unfamiliar.

In short, that single thread can provide you with many hours of reading on this topic.

The thread was closed or locked down, and the person who started was permanently banned from CF as a troll, because of his repeated trolling. But, the thread is still viewable so you can read it, and it can be informative on this debatable subject.

I am sharing this here simply to save people time, and to point to what has been already discussed at length on this topic. Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-138908.html

[RickG]

Originally Posted by flinke

Yes I have noticed the tendency to round up a little.

For the longer distance stuff and with regard to heavier condition exposure would an inner forstay with a staysail for example be a good idea to make her more suitable ?

Thanks

Do you have a standard main?

I'd go with a 110% genoa and skip a staysail. A whisker pole would be nice. You don't have a lot of space, so carrying spare sails is a burden that you need to balance with other loads.

A blog I follow of a B423 circumnavigating is Prince Diamond. He has the standard sailplan and replaced his thru-hulls.

http://www.svprincediamond.com/

Cheers, RickG

[Wckoek]

Simply no, there is a batch of new Sense 50 comes without limber hole drilled, a new Oceanis 55 on delivery draws water and crew had to be rescued of Monterey.

A member here had an Oceanis experience rudder failure, being sent a lemon replacement and sunk, with no further support and help.

They are terrible in handling response and service, for this reason I won't go with Oceanis if you meant to purchase, even as much as I like their Sense and the racing Figaro.

Bavaria only have a model suffering from keel problem, but Beneteau is more inconsistent across different models.

If you ask for seaworthy and possible for circumnavigation I'll say yes, but if you are buying it, why not look for other choices?

[flinke]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Simply no, there is a batch of new Sense 50 comes without limber hole drilled, a new Oceanis 55 on delivery draws water and crew had to be rescued of Monterey.



A member here had an Oceanis experience rudder failure, being sent a lemon replacement and sunk, with no further support and help.



They are terrible in handling response and service, for this reason I won't go with Oceanis if you meant to purchase, even as much as I like their Sense and the racing Figaro.



Bavaria only have a model suffering from keel problem, but Beneteau is more inconsistent across different models.



If you ask for seaworthy and possible for circumnavigation I'll say yes, but if you are buying it, why not look for other choices?

Yes i have read about the rudder failure saga which was quite unfortunate along with the Cyclades/Oceanis mixup in rudder parts sent out. But I guess this is a common weak point with Bene.

I have already purchased the B40 (2010) and as my plans are forming for getting from Europe-Carib then eventually cross over to NZ stop by stop I'm looking into seaworthy aspects and info of ppl who may have done so in this vessel. I'm aware of the inconsistencies across models, that's why I have tried to tailor the thread to be more specific to this model.

Thanks for the link Steady Hand will be a very informative read.

RickG I have replaced all the through hulls with DZR brass after haul out survey, most were fine just more of a preventative. Genoa 140 I think and standard main.

[Jim Cate]

Genoa 140 I think and standard main.

I'm not a Bene expert, but here's my take on that sail plan: The 140 is likely too big if you have no inner forestay or other means of setting a smaller foresail. In 25+ knots, relying upon a rolled up big and likely fairly light genoa is poor practice. It will stretch the sail and perform poorly. So, do consider adding a (removable if you wish) inner stay and a non-overlapping staysail. You'll be glad you did!

Jim

[flinke]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm not a Bene expert, but here's my take on that sail plan: The 140 is likely too big if you have no inner forestay or other means of setting a smaller foresail. In 25+ knots, relying upon a rolled up big and likely fairly light genoa is poor practice. It will stretch the sail and perform poorly. So, do consider adding a (removable if you wish) inner stay and a non-overlapping staysail. You'll be glad you did!

Jim

Yeah that's correct it is way overpowered anything from reaching to close hauled in about 20kn with full genoa and roller reeling seems to turn into into a shopping bag shape not helping at all, so I'm guessing the sail is already stretched therefor I would like to reduce genoa size and maybe get on cut a little higher.

There is a mount point approx 1m aft of headstay for a baby stay, would it be possible to have an addition stay with furler fitted here?

If so does it need to run parallel with the other stay? That would roughly have it joining at the upper spreaders....

Would running backs be required to support?

Any idea on costs for this type or arrangements.

Would this setup stiffen the mast and rig somewhat, in turn making fit more suitable for longer passages?

Thanks

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by flinke

Yeah that's correct it is way overpowered anything from reaching to close hauled in about 20kn with full genoa and roller reeling seems to turn into into a shopping bag shape not helping at all, so I'm guessing the sail is already stretched therefor I would like to reduce genoa size and maybe get on cut a little higher.

There is a mount point approx 1m aft of headstay for a baby stay, would it be possible to have an addition stay with furler fitted here?

If so does it need to run parallel with the other stay? That would roughly have it joining at the upper spreaders....

Would running backs be required to support?

Any idea on costs for this type or arrangements.

Would this setup stiffen the mast and rig somewhat, in turn making fit more suitable for longer passages?

Thanks

Ok, sounds like you have the right ideas. You have two choices for an inner forestay (not a baby stay, which isn't designed to set a sail upon).

The first is a traditional inner stay, going from your deck to the mast at the second spreaders. There may well already be the fittings there for attachment. If not, suitable tangs must be fixed, and at the same time, fittings for running backstays should be added. Those runners will only be needed if you are loading up the staysail going to windward in a blow, and can be made of Dyneema to reduce chafe and noise. The stay can be made easily removable if you wish, making tacking the genoa easier but on most such rigs the genoa will blow through the slot (most of the time!).

The second is called a Solent stay. It goes from the same deck fitting but at the top it goes to a fitting about a foot or so below the headstay. There will not be standard fittings there, so some form of tang or hounds must be made. The advantage of this rig is that no runners are needed, and the Solent jib can be a pretty high aspect blade cut, possibly more efficient for windward work than the traditional staysail. One disadvantage of this rig is that tacking or gybing the genoa requires rolling it up due to the very narrow slot betwixt the stays.

Our boat is Solent rigged, but with a fractional rig to start with. We started with a removable inner stay but as we aged, we put a roller furler on the Solent and lost the ability to easily remove it. A PITA at times, but overall worth it for us. For our boat, going to windward in 20 + we use one reef in the main and the Solent. Gives good boat speed and easy tacking, for the head of the main clears the runners and the Solent tacks through easily. Downwind we can pole the genoa out to windward and use the Solent to leeward, with or without the mainsail. Gives good downwind course stability and lots of sail area.. we like it!



Googling Solent Jib will likely show you some pix, and I'm sure others will chime in with their version of truth.

Jim

[Captsteve53]

A couple of technical issues if going the inner stay route:

1) Structural questions concern how to reinforce the deck where the stay is attached. This fitting must be tied into a bulkhead or frame with a chain plate, or secured with a tie rod which usually is connected to a glassed-in fitting in the bottom of the boat The load on the upper end, on the mast, will need to be countered by running back stays, which almost no one likes, or powerful aft lowers.

2) Often overlooked until too late, is the rig’s balance. If the helm is right without a stay sail, it’s unlikely to be so with the additional of a stay sail…except perhaps when used in heavy weather with a reefed main. What is required to avoid problems is a sound understanding of the CE (Center of Effort of the entire sail plan) and the CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance of the hull and keel). The relationship between the two (called the “lead”) is very important. The “lead” is somewhat adjustable, but the available corrections are quite limited.



Cheers Steve

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by flinke

Yes i have read about the rudder failure saga which was quite unfortunate along with the Cyclades/Oceanis mixup in rudder parts sent out. But I guess this is a common weak point with Bene.

I have already purchased the B40 (2010) and as my plans are forming for getting from Europe-Carib then eventually cross over to NZ stop by stop I'm looking into seaworthy aspects and info of ppl who may have done so in this vessel. I'm aware of the inconsistencies across models, that's why I have tried to tailor the thread to be more specific to this model.

Thanks for the link Steady Hand will be a very informative read.

RickG I have replaced all the through hulls with DZR brass after haul out survey, most were fine just more of a preventative. Genoa 140 I think and standard main.

Not as simple as a mixup, as they admit the parts are interchangeable.
To put it bluntly, they are lying, they send out lemon parts and refuse to take responsibility when it is their liability, terrible loss when you aren't covered by insurance.
If your rudder fails it should just that you lose steering, not the whole boat goes down the water.

If you are doing blue water ocean crossing you need to strengthen the rudder and other points that are known to fail. That wouldn't come cheap and takes time to do it, adding the cost probably won't be worthwhile if you are buying one for the purpose.
If you have the boat then it's ok. Have the survey done and maybe the surveyor can tell what needs to be done.

[flinke]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ok, sounds like you have the right ideas. You have two choices for an inner forestay (not a baby stay, which isn't designed to set a sail upon).



The first is a traditional inner stay, going from your deck to the mast at the second spreaders. There may well already be the fittings there for attachment. If not, suitable tangs must be fixed, and at the same time, fittings for running backstays should be added. Those runners will only be needed if you are loading up the staysail going to windward in a blow, and can be made of Dyneema to reduce chafe and noise. The stay can be made easily removable if you wish, making tacking the genoa easier but on most such rigs the genoa will blow through the slot (most of the time!).



The second is called a Solent stay. It goes from the same deck fitting but at the top it goes to a fitting about a foot or so below the headstay. There will not be standard fittings there, so some form of tang or hounds must be made. The advantage of this rig is that no runners are needed, and the Solent jib can be a pretty high aspect blade cut, possibly more efficient for windward work than the traditional staysail. One disadvantage of this rig is that tacking or gybing the genoa requires rolling it up due to the very narrow slot betwixt the stays.



Our boat is Solent rigged, but with a fractional rig to start with. We started with a removable inner stay but as we aged, we put a roller furler on the Solent and lost the ability to easily remove it. A PITA at times, but overall worth it for us. For our boat, going to windward in 20 + we use one reef in the main and the Solent. Gives good boat speed and easy tacking, for the head of the main clears the runners and the Solent tacks through easily. Downwind we can pole the genoa out to windward and use the Solent to leeward, with or without the mainsail. Gives good downwind course stability and lots of sail area.. we like it!







Googling Solent Jib will likely show you some pix, and I'm sure others will chime in with their version of truth.



Jim

Ok thanks that's great information.

Looks like I will be deciding between Solent and inner forestay but whichever I choose I will prefer to go with a furler just tô easier handling.

The possibility to pole both headsails out downwind sounds really great is it only the Solent rig that applies to or also the inner?
I'm not to concerned with the addition of running backs as I'm sure it can stiffen the rig when need be in particular conditions.

Thanks again

[flinke]

Originally Posted by Captsteve53

A couple of technical issues if going the inner stay route:



1) Structural questions concern how to reinforce the deck where the stay is attached. This fitting must be tied into a bulkhead or frame with a chain plate, or secured with a tie rod which usually is connected to a glassed-in fitting in the bottom of the boat The load on the upper end, on the mast, will need to be countered by running back stays, which almost no one likes, or powerful aft lowers.



2) Often overlooked until too late, is the rig’s balance. If the helm is right without a stay sail, it’s unlikely to be so with the additional of a stay sail…except perhaps when used in heavy weather with a reefed main. What is required to avoid problems is a sound understanding of the CE (Center of Effort of the entire sail plan) and the CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance of the hull and keel). The relationship between the two (called the “lead”) is very important. The “lead” is somewhat adjustable, but the available corrections are quite limited.







Cheers Steve

Cheers Steve,

There is a chainplate pre fitted on this Beneteau model, mounted tô the deck about 1m aft of the headstay which is attached to a bulkhead in below cabin it the same manner as headstay.

As for the balance that's a good point. I'm not to experienced in this but at present there is some weather helm for sure. Would Beneteau have drawings or plans to indicate these points ?

Cheers

[barnakiel]

I think I can remember a number of threads discussing some issues. Use the search mode.

Cheers,
b.

[Jim Cate]

The possibility to pole both headsails out downwind sounds really great is it only the Solent rig that applies to or also the inner?

In our case, we don't pole out both sails, just the genoa to windward. The Solent is just sheeted to the rail and stays full quite well. We use a full length spinnaker pole on the genoa, but have no short pole for the Solent, so have no choice in the matter!

Don't worry too much about the balance issue. My observation is that most modern hull shapes don't respond much to changes in sail plan. Their fairly asymmetrical hull shapes generate weather helm as a function of heel angle more than as a result of sail plan changes. I suspect that your boat is similar, and the main use of the inner sail is in heavy weather and will likely be used with a reefed main. We often fly the Solent with a full main and notice no increase in weather helm... not guarantee that your boat will do the same, but I expect it will.

Jim

[RickG]

Thinking through the same process, we are skipping the staysail and going with the 110% genoa with a whisker pole. We have a 140% genoa too as well as a cruising spinnaker. It's tempting to bring the lot, but simple is good.

But... it is tempting to move to a solent rig - too many episodes of Distant Shores influencing us.

Cheers, RickG

[flinke]

Ok,

Well I guess that covers the shortcomings of the standard sail plan for cruising and the required upgrades.

What about other know deficiencies such as;

-The keel bolt backing plates. It's been noted on here they are rather small for the stresses that may be inflicted on the bolts. Is it possible to change out the backing plates as a preventative with something larger, one by one when in the cradle hauled out? Or is this a major and the whole keel must be removed?

- the rudder and Stock mounting arrangement. Also as a preventative to the issues that have been spoken of in the past can some stiffening be installed or any other moving parts that can be changed at an early stage to avoid any drama?

- also is the critical areas where Plexus is know to fail that can additional stiffening installed ?