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10-01-2018, 04:15
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Hinckley 49, Evening Star, originally owned by Lawrence Rockefeller
Posts: 282
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Ideal windlass issue
My ideal windlass has decided not to work, it will spin perfectly until there is a load on it. There is a loud grinding noise when load is applied
I suspect the motor has an issue, batteries are full, is there anything else I should look at before I pull the motor off?
I tried to attach a video of the noise, but no go, so here is a pic instead, it only took an hour and a half to pull up 80meters of chain!
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10-01-2018, 04:43
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
If you're hearing grinding when load is applied it's probably the gearbox, not the motor itself.
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10-01-2018, 05:40
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Boat: Bruce Bingham Christina 49
Posts: 3,328
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
We have an Ideal windlass, but haven't had any grinding issues to date. Looking at the 4 bolt deck pattern from the pic, it appears you have a model similar to ours and is either a V3C or V4C (the V3C has a smaller gear box).
Not an expert here but have done some upgrading on our gear box, so I'll throw my thoughts into the hat. Based on the grinding noise, I would start by pulling the motor and inspecting the end drive gear or the motor itself. The motor and end gear are the main drive units in the gear box and unless the end gear broke apart, the gears in the box should be fine (and if the gear lube level was maintained). Before you pull the motor drain the gear box oil. Here is a link that describes the motor removal in more detail.
After removing the motor try to spin the windlass by hand (it will be somewhat difficult) to see if it turns smoothly or grinds. Also inspect the gear lube for metal particles and compare to the metal type at the end of the starter (think the main gears are bronze). Here's a link to the gen. troubleshooting page for reference.
I'm thinking its only the motor that has gone bad. Before you purchase a new motor from Ideal (now owned by Schaefer Marine), try to take your motor to an old school alternator/starter motor repair shop. Essentially these are starter motors so they may be able to fix it cheaper than the price of a replacement. Also they aren't the quickest in turn around, so it may be quicker to look locally for repair.
Would like to know what you find, so keep us updated.
Bill O.
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10-01-2018, 12:30
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Hinckley 49, Evening Star, originally owned by Lawrence Rockefeller
Posts: 282
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Thanks Bill O for the reply, yes I have emailed Schaefer, but as yet have not heard back from them, thus I asked the crowd.
Will let you know how I go, am starting today with the oil removal, giving myself 3 hours for that.
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10-01-2018, 15:27
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Hinckley 49, Evening Star, originally owned by Lawrence Rockefeller
Posts: 282
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Schaefer reply
Hello Mark,
I attached some information that might be helpful. It sounds to me that there is a gearing problem.
Best bet is to take the system apart and look at the inside parts.
Do you know your serial number. It would be on the gearcase or motor.
Let me know your thoughts,
Joy Ruel
Schaefer Marine Inc.
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11-01-2018, 06:03
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Boat: Bruce Bingham Christina 49
Posts: 3,328
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Mark,
When you drained the gear lube did you see any metal bits? How did the worm gear look on the motor?
Don't think you mentioned which model you have V3C or V4C??
Bill O.
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11-01-2018, 07:11
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Bern, NC
Boat: Shannon 43 Ketch
Posts: 246
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O
We have an Ideal windlass, but haven't had any grinding issues to date. Looking at the 4 bolt deck pattern from the pic, it appears you have a model similar to ours and is either a V3C or V4C (the V3C has a smaller gear box).
Not an expert here but have done some upgrading on our gear box, so I'll throw my thoughts into the hat. Based on the grinding noise, I would start by pulling the motor and inspecting the end drive gear or the motor itself. The motor and end gear are the main drive units in the gear box and unless the end gear broke apart, the gears in the box should be fine (and if the gear lube level was maintained). Before you pull the motor drain the gear box oil. Here is a link that describes the motor removal in more detail.
After removing the motor try to spin the windlass by hand (it will be somewhat difficult) to see if it turns smoothly or grinds. Also inspect the gear lube for metal particles and compare to the metal type at the end of the starter (think the main gears are bronze). Here's a link to the gen. troubleshooting page for reference.
I'm thinking its only the motor that has gone bad. Before you purchase a new motor from Ideal (now owned by Schaefer Marine), try to take your motor to an old school alternator/starter motor repair shop. Essentially these are starter motors so they may be able to fix it cheaper than the price of a replacement. Also they aren't the quickest in turn around, so it may be quicker to look locally for repair.
Would like to know what you find, so keep us updated.
Bill O.
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Great response
__________________
Smooth sailing and fresh warm breezes,
Tony & Lisa
sv Marite
'87 Shannon 43' Ketch
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11-01-2018, 07:12
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Bern, NC
Boat: Shannon 43 Ketch
Posts: 246
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
This is a great line - I will follow closely as my 30 yo windlass is due for some love
__________________
Smooth sailing and fresh warm breezes,
Tony & Lisa
sv Marite
'87 Shannon 43' Ketch
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11-01-2018, 10:12
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#9
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 5,486
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Assuming the gears are fine, it's either worn brushes or a bad winding in the motor. My dollar is on brushes.
I put a used V3C on the Rose last year. I took the back plate off the motor and removed quite a bit of old brush dust from the back end. I know I have to replace the brushes real soon now.
Anybody have a source for brushes, they are roughly 1/4" x 3/4" and there are four (see photo).
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11-01-2018, 10:51
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Boat: Bruce Bingham Christina 49
Posts: 3,328
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
For the brushes, if you can locate an old school generator/alternator/starter rebuild shop, I'm certain they would have them. Kinda hard to find a shop like that these days.
The owner of my local old school shop just retired, so I'll be looking around for another for future repairs.
Bill O.
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11-01-2018, 11:19
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#11
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 16,306
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34
Assuming the gears are fine, it's either worn brushes or a bad winding in the motor. My dollar is on brushes.
I put a used V3C on the Rose last year. I took the back plate off the motor and removed quite a bit of old brush dust from the back end. I know I have to replace the brushes real soon now.
Anybody have a source for brushes, they are roughly 1/4" x 3/4" and there are four (see photo).
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If you can't find the exact brushes then see if you can find an oversized set with the correct kind of leads. Then sand down the brushes to fit the holders in the motor. Done this before and worked fine. The brushes are pretty soft and easy to shape.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.
Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
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11-01-2018, 11:20
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tiverton, RI, USA
Boat: ex-Tartan 40
Posts: 619
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Try calling Schaefer and ask for Cliff. He was the problem solver at Ideal and was at Schaefer when I last called a bit over a year ago. If you have the model number he can often help you diagnose over the phone.
I agree that, if the problem is the motor, fixing locally is the way to go.
__________________
- David
S/V Sapphire Tartan 40 #71
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11-01-2018, 11:41
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#13
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 16,306
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Grinding noise could be motor, could be gears. I've had motors where the magnets cracked or came off that made grinding noises. Also had gear problems that a bad bearing or bushing caused the noise.
Only way to tell is to get inside and look. If there's a difference in the disassembly, start with the part that's easiest to take apart and put back together. You'll hate yourself if you do the hard part first only to discover it was the easy one.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.
Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
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11-01-2018, 14:44
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Hinckley 49, Evening Star, originally owned by Lawrence Rockefeller
Posts: 282
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O
Mark,
When you drained the gear lube did you see any metal bits? How did the worm gear look on the motor?
Don't think you mentioned which model you have V3C or V4C??
Bill O.
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I haven’t managed to do anything as yet Bill O, hopefully in the next couple of days I will drain oil and pull motor.
The model is a BWAC, that’s until I find a different model number stamped in the motor/gearbox itself!
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11-01-2018, 20:59
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#15
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 5,486
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Re: Ideal windlass issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac
If you can't find the exact brushes then see if you can find an oversized set with the correct kind of leads. Then sand down the brushes to fit the holders in the motor. Done this before and worked fine. The brushes are pretty soft and easy to shape.
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That is my fall back.
Near as I can tell the brush holders look very much like a Delco, but I've not found the exact set. Gee mine can't be more then 25 years old. Odd's are it will be fine for another year.
Of course If I can find a NOS brush holder with brushes, it would be a lovely thing to have in the spares box.
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