In search of Anchoring/Mooring upgrade wisdom

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

While we are on it, how about windlass options for these Hunters? What works for a small 27 foot boat that is also inexpensive and not back breaking?

To be blunt...no windlass on a 27' boat. There is no space for one, it takes a ton of electrical power, and it costs a fortune. Hauling that anchor up by hand will keep you young and fit. You'll get great "guns" (biceps) that the ladies will adore. Just make sure you can sit on the foredeck with a good lead to the roller, and haul away heartily! If you run into trouble, and this has happened to me, lead the anchor line to any handy winch...on the mast, or all the way back to the primaries in the cockpit. That will give you the extra power you need once in a blue moon. I've even hauled the anchor all the way up from the cockpit using this method in a blow. A couple of snatch blocks on your fabulous toe rail might be needed for a good lead, so be sure to keep a couple on hand.

I've snagged underwater branches, submerged trees, and giant metal things, and so far have been able to retrieve the anchor every time...although sometimes with great difficulty and time. But every sailboat takes those risks.

And here is an offer you cannot refuse....if you drop by my house in Kingston Ontario, I'll give you a 10kg bruce, complete with chain and rode...free. I sold my boat, and I'm cleaning house. I have 4 anchors and no boat. They are good anchors...I keep them in my shed, and the shed has not budged an inch, and there have been plenty of big winds lately! I might even have a couple snatch blocks to go with it, for the price of a coffee. I've done my sailing, had my adventures, now I'm happy to help others get going on theirs.

[Don C L]

Well, ok, I'll give my 2 cents worth... I have a boat of similar windage and weight and I am a happy Danforth user, but I am aware of and plan for their limitations. But for unidirectional holding power in sand to mud, they are hard to beat. If you decide to go with Danforth, get the hi-tensiles, like the 20H for the bow (that's what I have) and a 12H for the stern. I set those two anchors, bow and stern, and I am in areas that can get a bit windy and bouncy at times... I still sleep well. Oh, I'll also buoy them if there is a chance I'll bury them too deep or it might be rocky.... easy to pull them out backwards if needed with a trip line. BUT if you'd rather set one hook, then yes, get a Mantus, Rocna or other new generation anchor... pretty clear from Noelex and Panope's threads (you have seen those right?) that those anchors will pivot and re-set pretty reliably. No windlass for me too... (though sometimes I do confess to OCCASIONALLY looking longingly at those folks who just go forward and step on a button and watch the anchor come up.) Not sure if I missed it but I am at least as concerned about chafing as holding power when looking at the whole set-up. Make sure there is none of that anywhere if you are not using all chain.

[JPA Cate]

Don, your post made me remember a wind-against-the-tide situation where the guys with a boat-length of chain, and nylon 3 strand back, would get crosswise, and, when the tide changed, wind the rode up over the keel. At that point, the rode chafed on the aft end of the keel, and parted. Saw two of them do that in one season, not to mention chafing on rock and/or coral...

Ann

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Don, your post made me remember a wind-against-the-tide situation where the guys with a boat-length of chain, and nylon 3 strand back, would get crosswise, and, when the tide changed, wind the rode up over the keel. At that point, the rode chafed on the aft end of the keel, and parted. Saw two of them do that in one season, not to mention chafing on rock and/or coral...

I had the same thing with my Hunter Legend 35.5. Wind and current reversal, several times during the night..and a winged keel! Woke up to find I was anchored by the keel. Very difficult to unwind, since the anchor line still holding the boat in place.

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by hamburking

And here is an offer you cannot refuse....if you drop by my house in Kingston Ontario, I'll give you a 10kg bruce, complete with chain and rode...free. I sold my boat, and I'm cleaning house. I have 4 anchors and no boat. They are good anchors...I keep them in my shed, and the shed has not budged an inch, and there have been plenty of big winds lately! I might even have a couple snatch blocks to go with it, for the price of a coffee. I've done my sailing, had my adventures, now I'm happy to help others get going on theirs.

You can not imagine how great that would be for me! Unfortunately, I cannot get there. The shipping for them must be exorbitant!

I hate to have to say it, but I guess I have to let them continue holding the shed down... I sure appreciate the offer though! They would definitely come in handy!

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by hamburking

I had the same thing with my Hunter Legend 35.5. Wind and current reversal, several times during the night..and a winged keel! Woke up to find I was anchored by the keel. Very difficult to unwind, since the anchor line still holding the boat in place.

And then, of course, the anchor held well...

[UNCIVILIZED]

From one Navy guy to another, here are a few hardware tips:

If you've got the room, & plan to anchor much, 3 cleats on the bow, well placed, isn't too many: 1 for your primary anchor rode, 1 for a 2ndary rode, & 1 for a snubber, or other.

Have another type of anchor in addition to a Danforth style. Preferably a newer gen anchor.

Buy or have your anchor roller(s) overbuilt. Including doing the same with the extra glass reinforcements that you add inside of the hull to which they'll be bolted.

Ensure that the roller has a gate via which the rode can be kept captured on the roller once the anchor is down. Also make sure that all of the rollers edges are smooth or rounded, even if this means having some sections of stainless tubing welded onto it's edges, so as to lessen chafing.
And use large backing plates in addition to the washers when bolting it in place. For backers you needn't necessarily use stainless, as aluminum or G10 will do when properly sized, & both are much easier to cut & shape.

You can, if inclined, have a custom roller setup made which incorporates 2 rollers, with the headstay tang being part of the center web between the two. It gives some boats with narrow, needle like bows, more options for optimizing their forward "real estate".
If you do this, try & use Duplex Stainless Steel, as it's more resistant to crevice corrosion, work hardening, & cracking than are most other common types of stainless used on recreational vessels.

Raise the drum of your roller furler further off of the deck using link plates, or toggles. So that you then have more room for the anchor, & other hardware up forward. It really helps, especially when retrieving the hook.

Chocks are really nice to have if you get/make good ones. Specifically what you want is ones that are oval in shape, & that have a sliding, locking cross bar which forms their upper edge. So that lines can easily be fitted into place with them open, but when they're closed, the line can't jump out. Plus which, when well designed, this type of chock has few, if any sharp edges. Unlike most open chocks.

You might need to have such chocks custom built in a shop, though a few models are still available for sale. Or they can be found in used gear chandleries. But having a locking gate on them rocks! I've even seen some made using a bow shackle that has a locking, captive pin, as their core (key component).

For midship cleats you might consider adding some lengths of 1 1/4" T-shaped genoa track to your boat. And then picking up one of the many sliding, removable cleats which are designed to be used with it, such as by Schaffer. That way you can also add genoa adjustable genoa leads in order to optimize your sail trim. And the track also allows for the mounting of sliding fairleads & padeyes.

On midships cleats, if you do instead opt to go with bolt in place ones, use a riser block made of a material that's fairly impervious to weather. Such as MDO/MDF (Sign board/wet board) at a minimum, durability wise, & seal it up well. Also, round their corners, & bullnose all of their edges with a router. Dull edges hurt toes & fingers less

The catch, however, with taller midships cleats is that they tend to like to catch jib sheets. So then you'll want small removable covers for their horns to prevent this from happening. And it doesn't hurt to have such covers for bow cleats also. They're easy to make (or buy).

PS: Carry 2 rigging knives at all times. Enjoy the boat, & thanks for your service!

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Teknishn

As I will be spending a lot of time on the hook in the Chesapeake Bay I most certainly need to upgrade the anchoring system here. The current anchor is a 13-lb Danforth on a 150-rode. Am planning to add a second 13-lb Danforth with rode and a 22-lb Danforth with rode (the heavy storm anchor).

In case you didn't notice this one, see here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-174639.html


Thanks for your service!


-Chris

[Teknishn]

Uncivilized, Thanks for that info and the kind words appreciating my service....that is much appreciated, and right back at you Sir. Retired now, time to thank the current warriors out there.

Good info all. Thank you very much. Much of it I have considered already. Good idea on the genoa T-track and removable cleats. Not an option that I had considered.

For clarification purposes, here is a picture of the boat from a Manufacturer's brochure (probably late 70's). Recent survey of the boat indicates the same layout but too many to post here.



Yes, 3 cleats up forward installed aft of the chain locker hatch would work. I prefer to install a Samson post with two 8-inch cleats on either side as space allows. The reason I have the preference for a Samson post is for visual purposes as you will know it's there as it stands more proud than 3-cleats on deck. 3-cleats alongside each other just provides more of a trip hazard IMO. A single large G10 plate of steel is planned to be the backing plate for all 3 deck fittings.

Measurements taken my an ex-wife indicate that I only have about 10-11 inches between the bow and the edge of the anchor locker which makes mounting a bow roller challenging, if nigh impossible. Mounting a bow roller on the prow of the boat is also not an option as I would have to mate it with the forestay chain plate . Do not know if it is possible but just sounds like a bad idea to me when considering all of the stresses involved. So it is looking more and more like fairleads/chocks for my anchor rodes.

I've been looking for closed oval chocks but apparently no one makes them anymore. The chocks that can be opened and closed have been considered and would be convenient as heck. However, being in Egypt, I can have closed 5.5-inch 316 stainless steel chocks manufactured for about $60 each. So might go that route. (We're having stainless handrails and stanchions manufactured on my current project on a 90-foot yacht....can probably get the chock price down a bit as a result).

The amidships cleats. If you look at the pic, notice the lifeline stanchions. There is actually no good place to install cleats amidships. Uncivilized is correct about the possibility of snagging a jib sheet on a cleat installed in this area. My idea is to install 8-inch "amidships cleats" aft of amidships about where the aft corner of the aft-most cabin portlight is located. This, because of the clearance fore and aft of the lifeline stanchions and it is also some distance aft of the jib sheet sheave. Also, the cleat is near enough to the cockpit and if a jib sheet does foul, it is near enough to clear it from the cockpit. Not the best option for using spring lines or tying alongside another vessel, but better than nothing.

As for anchors, which my original post did not intend to address, I have seen a few posts since my previous post. FYI I have ordered a 35# Mantus anchor (yes, there is stowage for it onboard), will retain the 13# Danforth to be used for those quick stops for lunch and as a kedge, and at some point purchase a 22-25# Danforth as my secondary anchor to the Mantus. Yes I know, overkill on a 27-footer.....but I like overkill! Systems and system safety overkill is what I do for a living (seriously).

Oh, and don't even get me started about my planned overhaul of the boat's electrical systems! (All materials purchased and waiting with the exception of the mahogany to manufacture the panel for the new switch panels, battery monitor, bilge pump switches (3), radio and sound system).

Again, thanks for all of the good info!

[UNCIVILIZED]

For chocks, if you decide not to have them made near where you are now, you can try;
Home » Davey & Co London LTD
Port Townsend Foundry in Washington
Other Foundries, especially those which make old school marine fittings. A company called ABI that's no longer in business used to make them. And searching under headers like "opening chocks", etc.

For your foredeck, as radical as this may sound, it may make sense to loose the opening deck locker, & go to an older style arrangement. So that you have a solid foredeck, with a self draining chain locker below it. Possibly with a disappearing samson post incorporated into the aft bulkhead of the locker.

That way you have a lot more foredeck space to work with/bolt things to, & a foredeck which is much stronger. Without giving up much in terms of room for storing a couple of anchor rodes. As typically you can have 2 rodes in the same locker without issue, often even when led through one hawse.

it's a project that can be accomplished in a couple of weekends worth of work by one guy. And honestly, I much prefer such a setup. Only incorporating an opening locker on the foredeck, after a conventional arrangement is in place & working well. Which, with some creative building, it's possible to fit both on a good number of vessels.


I know that you're kind of fixated on midships cleats. But honestly, other than when docked, they're truly a pain. Between constantly being kicked, or tripped over, & their propensity for snagging lines. Which is also a safety hazard, as you go to tack away from danger, & then can't due to a snagged jib sheet.

Aside from the other options mentioned, look into ones which attach to your current toe rail which can be folded down or removed. They tend to look as if they're made from oversized rod stock, bent in the shape of cleats, which clamp onto the toe rail.
That & there are also pop-up, & fold down cleats. So that when not in use, they're recessed flush below or at the level of the deck. And thus don't catch lines.
C.S. Johnson Folding Toe Rail Cleat
Defender.com Search Results: flush mounted cleat


Sampson posts while handy in theory, are definitely prone to snagging lines on smaller boats. Especially jib sheets & such. In addition to doing the same to many light air sails, resulting in tears to same. And they really aren't found on many boats under 50'/20m for that reason. As on bigger boats they don't exhibit these kinds of drawbacks nearly so often. Both due to there being more deck space on such vessels, & that most of the sails are made from heavier cloth. Plus there are more crew to handle sails & lines, thus keeping them from snagging on things.

For example, on a C&C 41' that I commonly race on, even though her bow cleats are semi-recessed, we have to be religious about putting her cleat covers in place. Otherwise they're continually snagging lines & sails. Even with several of us being pro sailors (America's Cup, literally). So the issues are real.

[JPA Cate]

Teknishn,

I think it's Wichard, who make a pad eye that folds flat. I don't know how strong they are, but might be a way to have a midships connection for spring lines without snagging the genoa sheets when you tack. A couple of soft shackles, and you can affix your spring lines. Imho, you really want the attachment at the max beam amidships.

Ann

[Cheechako]

As mentioned, add a bow roller. You don't need to go overboard on any of this, it's not a big boat. I think the Sampson post will be more trouble than its worth. Just add a good big cleat or two for anchoring with proper backup etc. Or one of those big bolt on Sampson posts!
The mid ship cleats are primarily for at the dock etc, as mentioned just space them up near the toe rail out from under foot. There are folding cleats youmight even use for spring lines at the dock. I would use Starboard or another non maintenance requiring material, but of course Teak is fine also.
Danforths are good, but yes, get another alternative also as Danforths are ungainly to handle and don't do that well in bow rollers. maybe a modern anchor for your main acnchor, you will use it 99.9% of the time if you just set it up well with a bow roller. ..and you don't need 35# for your boat, although big never hurts... except your back!
I've done a lot of planning away from the boat. WARNING: a lot of "not near the boat" planning doesn't work out. Plenty of time when you get there.

[SailingFan]

Mine (a '78 Hunter 27) does not have a forward deck hatch, the only forward hatch is the one at the top of the Vee cabin, forward of the mast but definitely not on the foredeck.

I have a hawse the anchor rode falls into (or rather I have to stuff it into), thereby putting said rode into an anchor locker that opens with a door into the Vee berth for inspection or cleaning, etc. I do need to put a cap on that thing, come to think of it, the current setup allows water to enter the hull through the part of that hawse hole that is not occupied with rode when it rains...

I have also been toying with adding some form of bow roller like what was on my Chris Craft Scorpion Stinger power boat, because that thing was WONDERFUL. It made anchor handling far easier and also seemed to provide a bit of leverage when pulling the anchor off the muddy St. John's River bottom. I suppose it will cost me in length measurements in marinas, but that foot or so will probably pay for itself. I will have to offset it because of the same reasons already listed as far as bow mounted hardware in this series vessel, so I suppose it is going to look damned strange up there. Is this a solution the OP can be happy with, or is symmetry more important for some reason than having a bow roller and the associated virtues thereof?

Maybe I can arrange another halyard up there to add another sail on a removable bowsprit that can attach to this, but I have no idea what that will do to sail balance (maybe it won't make a difference in balance on a reach??). Seems like a decent way to add sailcloth in light airs, though, or even in storms using a smallish storm jib all the way up there...

[JPA Cate]

sometimes it's better to live with a boat for a while before making modifications to it.

Being aware of possible changes is great, but living with it gives you a better idea of what you will want later on. I, personally, would not add a long anchoring sprit, before hand, 'cause you want to keep the sprit as short as possible, and well supported (backing plates underneath the deck). Otherwise, the leverage will overpower it, the first time the anchor gets trapped.

Ann

On edit: Teknishn, you'd probably be okay with spring lines attached to the toe rail for docking. The toe rail isn't WAY STRONG, being aluminum, and can be torn by s/s shackles, but soft shackles could make the attachment point, and maybe spread the load a bit along the toerail. Do you know how the hull to deck joint was made, before the toe rail was applied? (What I'm getting at is, how strong is it, really: not what we suspect or think, but do we know?)

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

I know that you're kind of fixated on midships cleats. But honestly, other than when docked, they're truly a pain.

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

sometimes it's better to live with a boat for a while before making modifications to it.

On edit: Teknishn, you'd probably be okay with spring lines attached to the toe rail for docking. The toe rail isn't WAY STRONG, being aluminum, and can be torn by s/s shackles, but soft shackles could make the attachment point, and maybe spread the load a bit along the toerail.

We use our spring lines during docking -- as a working line, brake, warp, etc. -- about 90% of the time. There's a slight difference between "while docking" and "when docked" and the "while docking" part needs strength enough to not tear parts off the boat. I can't speak to whether midship cleats would be in the way or not "when docked" but I could certainly support an argument that says OP needs some if docking in wind or current might be in the cards.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I've done a lot of planning away from the boat. WARNING: a lot of "not near the boat" planning doesn't work out. Plenty of time when you get there.

Ann and Cheech have both hit on big points, here. Using the boat for a while before deciding about changes or upgrades has been more effective for us over the years... and upgrades usually seem to actually work when we've done the planning (and measuring and so forth) while we're actually on the boat.


-Chris