wind-vane rudder- another concept, will it work?

[Izikalvo]

Please see attached, is this new concept will do the job?

[Hydra]

Sorry to disappoint you, Izikalvo. No, it is not new, no it will not work. The problem with all wind vanes is to provide sufficient torque on the rudder stock to turn it, even when the yacht is sailing fast. Please remember that this torque is roughly proportional to the speed through water, squared. The vane in your drawing is *much* too small.

This was the reason for inventing pendulum wind vanes: they turn a long, slender, well balanced, vertical, auxiliary foil about a vertical axis. It deflects sideways, pulling the tiller. The higher the speed, the stronger the action of the auxiliary foil on the tiller.

By the way, the rudder in your drawing isn't correctly balanced: a substantial part (15-20%) should be in front of the stock, to minimise the torque.

Alain

[Pete7]

Nearest thing I can think of to your drawing is a Cape Horn windvane. Have a search on Google for them.

Pete

[double u]

a very popular system in the 80ies, many krauts had it & all I talked to claimed it worked great:
the old "windpilot":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btla8xQPGo

from 0:50 onwards &
http://windpilot.com/blog/wp-content...0/B-31-Spi.jpg
very simple, very reliable, emergency rudder included

[robert sailor]

Nope, not the way it is drawn but if your desire is to build your own you can certainly do it. Your trying to make an auxiliary rudder steer the boat. Several companies have made the concept work.. the best being Hydrovane but it uses a vertical vane to get more power plus a form of transmission to deal with lighter winds and it has a carefully designed balanced spade rudder.They work ok but not as powerful as a servo pendulum type. Next in line for the auxiliary rudder is the Autohelm and it uses a vertical vane that drives a trim tab on the back of the rudder, this works ok because it doesn't take much to turn a small trim tab on the back of the rudder, once that tab moves it moves the larger rudder with ease. The big advantage to an auxiliary rudder is you have a built in rudder if the primary rudder should fail and it's less likely to fail because as long as the vane is steering the primary rudder is locked in place and is only being used as a large trim tab to balance helm. Good luck with your project. R

[double u]

his drawing is more or less exactly like the old windpilot, robert sailor! the principle is correct!

[barnakiel]

As double u posted. The thing exists, is not novelty, and works.

Alas, as others have already pointed, in OP's drawing the wing (the vane is way too small). Even worse, the way the rudder attaches to the stern will snap in anything but the lightest conditions (or is it a titanium/carbon design?). You want two bearings spread well apart to hold the whole thing.

They were built by Windpilot before their aluminum and plastick models, I think they were called Atlantic too.

The Hydrovane is a fine iteration that mixes a fixed rudder and a vertical vane. It gets mixed reviews some people love it some hate it. I look at it when one is close by and find them very well built and a bit heavy (counts only in a small boat).

Cheers,
b.

PS I can send you images and dimensions if you are building a copy for yourself.

Cheers,
b.

http://s29.postimg.org/vsjr8vuwz/Windpilot_foto.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWYupBBoRDA

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by double u

his drawing is more or less exactly like the old windpilot, robert sailor! the principle is correct!

The principle is correct but it still won't work as drawn. His rudder needs to be balanced and he needs a more powerful vane. Even the original wind pilot was marginal at best but certainly better than the design as drawn. If your doing a home made job your probably better off using rudder with a tab attached like the Autohelm.

[Izikalvo]

The drawing i made was just to know if the concept will work.

and as i understand it will

I will be more than happy if any of you have any source i can get planes from.

thank you all, i intend to build one, i will update in time.

[double u]

"... Even the original wind pilot was marginal at best"
not true, otherwise there would not have been so many krauts & austrians in the 80ies circumnavigating with it, several singlehanders among them ("Windrose" & ""Gentle Giant"), the C&C 27 "Alfin" with a couple, those three just an example that I remember from so long ago, as we shared a whole hurricane-season (84/5?...) anchored off "the Gardens" in the Brisbane river. haven't heard anything but praise about their Windpilots then...
& there were many more whose name I have forgotten.

[double u]

btw:
http://windpilot.com/blog/wp-content...rger-Kopie.jpg
&
http://windpilot.com/blog/wp-content...ik-Systeme.jpg
&
http://windpilot.com/blog/wp-content...ik-4x-quer.jpg

[Izikalvo]

awesome!! it is exactly what i dreamed off, building planes anybody?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by double u

"... Even the original wind pilot was marginal at best"
not true, otherwise there would not have been so many krauts & austrians in the 80ies circumnavigating with it, several singlehanders among them ("Windrose" & ""Gentle Giant"), the C&C 27 "Alfin" with a couple, those three just an example that I remember from so long ago, as we shared a whole hurricane-season (84/5?...) anchored off "the Gardens" in the Brisbane river. haven't heard anything but praise about their Windpilots then...
& there were many more whose name I have forgotten.

First of all your so busy trying to make your point your not reading. I suggested that the design sketched would not work because it needs a balanced spade rudder and the sketch doesn't show that
Secondly the Windpilot was marginal gear, workable somewhat in smaller boats that self steered easily
If the gear was so great it would still be manufactured but it wasn't and isn't. The original Aries was and still is and that design lifting ideas from Hasler came from the late 60's and is capable of steering almost any design up to 50 feet. Why go to the trouble of designing and building inferior steering gear when much better designs are available and you could build them yourself if you wished.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

(...)

Why go to the trouble of designing and building inferior steering gear when much better designs are available and you could build them yourself if you wished.

There can be a number of reasons that may work single or together for any given user, e.g.:

- simplicity to build,
- ability to lock the main rudder,
- the boat small, hence the wv equipment small,
- etc.

You are right that the rudder spade is better when somewhat balanced. The airwing must be way bigger than drafted and the attachment must be multipoint.

Otherwise the design works fine in smaller boats that are directionaly stable (Vegas, etc.) but not quite that well in big boats that are more twitchy (most fin keelers).

So it is all up to what boat the OP has.

It is also true a decent pendulum gear can be now built with minimum fuss and not too high the cost. Google our friend.

Cheers,
b

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

There can be a number of reasons that may work single or together for any given user, e.g.:

- simplicity to build,
- ability to lock the main rudder,
- the boat small, hence the wv equipment small,
- etc.

You are right that the rudder spade is better when somewhat balanced. The airwing must be way bigger than drafted and the attachment must be multipoint.

Otherwise the design works fine in smaller boats that are directionaly stable (Vegas, etc.) but not quite that well in big boats that are more twitchy (most fin keelers).

So it is all up to what boat the OP has.

It is also true a decent pendulum gear can be now built with minimum fuss and not too high the cost. Google our friend.

Cheers,
b

All good points. I understand people's motives to build stuff themselves and it's a fine idea but today there is no reason to repeat all the mistakes of the past by building marginal gear that let's you down when you need it the most so I don't want to blow stars up someone's butt when their ideas are wrong. I would encourage the person to do more homework, you did a better job of that