Lack of Power to Windlass?

[Emerald Sea]

This is a similar posting that Kenmac made 10-09-2016 but without a followup to what the solution is. Our issue here is similar.

Yesterday my 2014 Dylan DH 1700W 12V windlass stopped on our Lagoon 450 catamaran. We had 60m of 12mm chain out in 18m water depth and the engines were running as normal practice when we recover the chain/anchor. Note that we do not pull the boat to the anchor when recovering the anchor, we move the boat under power toward the anchor then recover.

The up or down operating of the windlass (pay-in and pay-out) has become slower and slower until it just stops. It cannot lift the chain, even 2-3 meters. I can hear the relay switch (model T6315-12) clicking as I pressed either up or down. I checked all cable connections for oxidation, and cleaned them all (OK). A month ago I had dismantled and cleaned, greased the mechanical parts of the windlass - it is rotating normally i.e. no interferences. I did a voltage check across the relay terminals to the windlass motor with the following readings

Normal input voltage with engines running: 13.6V
When control engaged….
+ Brown UP: 0.6V
+ Blue DWN: 3.6V

I put the Amp clamp around the red + cable to the relay. The highest reading is approx 3.4A

If I keep the control button pressed (up or down) it will eventually trip the breaker.

AGM Battery is 3 years old

Please assist.

[Diesel Bill]

Can you swap out the battery and see what happens.

[Emerald Sea]

Bill, on our boat one must run the engine before the windlass powers up. Thus its not a direct power supply from the battery. If you are familiar with this type of arrangement would you know if you still need to have a strong battery? Presently, my battery is holding 13.6V.

However, I will do the sway and let you know.

Thanks

[smac999]

Measure the voltage at input to windlass relay. Probably red and black.

With and without windlass running.

[double u]

try bridging the solenoid (beware of heavy sparking!)

[yachtgemini]

The low current draw with a big drop in voltage is very confusing.. Typically this kind of lifting power loss is either the supply side or the worn brushes / the dust from the worn brushes causing power problems.

My first test using a battery and a set of jumper leads bypassing the solenoid etc would be to check if the motor spins up ok with a load.. if it does not look at the brushes side. If the motor checks out ok work backwards down the supply chain.

Good luck!

[tml]

Try by passing the power cables to the windlass starting with the ground. Spent 6 weeks tracking down a very similar problem. Started by checking voltages and were all OK. After replacing the solenoid and then the motor, cleaning every contact etc still not working.
Turned out the ground cable had failed; it would carry voltage but not enough power to turn the motor. By passed the negative cable and it worked immediately. The old ground was a double run of welding cable and 40 years old. It was on my "list" to replace but hadn't made it to the top. Once I started pulling the old cable hidden in conduit it was obvious that the fine stranded un tinned copper was falling apart.
Voltmeter is one of the most valuable tools on the boat but sometimes doesn't tell the whole story.

[donradcliffe]

Measure the voltage across the motor terminals when the windlass is running under load. If you get more than 10 volts, the motor is bad. If you get less than 10v, measure at upstream points, like across the solenoid output terminals, input terminals, circuit breaker, battery, until you find where you are losing voltage.

[Emerald Sea]

Ok, Ive swapped engine batteries and this had no effect - the windlass remains extremely slow to operate either up or down. *I then pulled apart the solenoid (control box) and cleaned up the contacts from arc carbon (these are the Italian control boxes and not sealed!, some carbon existed). I then went ahead with some further tests:

Caveat: My understanding of DC electricity is minimal so while I can take readings, interpreting them is often beyond my ability.

Step 1
To confirm if there is voltage at the breaker?
With my voltmeter, checked to ensure power is getting to the hot, or incoming side of the breaker: Yes, 13.6V
Then turned the breaker on and checked for outgoing power: Yes, 13.6V
There is voltage going to the solenoid

Step 2:
Next check is for voltage coming out of the solenoid. Tests taken with engine On and RPMs at 1800 (just to be sure) and taken at the cables (red, blu brwn) at top of solenoid box between the solenoid and windlass motor.

Between the Solenoid Red+ and Gnd-: 13.8V
When remote engaged: Blue and Grnd: 5.4V in Up; 8.7V in Down
When remote engaged: Brown and Grnd: 8.2V in Up; 5.8V in Down
There is a clunk sound coming from the solenoid when engaged.

Step 3:
Next voltage checks are direct at the windlass motor (blu, brwn and blk) with engine On and 1800 RPM.

When remote engaged: Blue and Grnd: 4.2V in Up; 7.1V in Down
When remote engaged: Brown and Grnd: 6.2V in Up; 4.8V in Down

Also, when I removed the small access door to the windlass motor studs, it has the distinct burned electrical smell.

Questions:

What should the voltages read at the windlass contacts with a properly operating windlass (when engaged)?
If the above (step 2 and 3) is not the required voltage, what does the lower voltage indicate?
Is the motor bad?
Or is the gear box ceasing up?
What do the above readings tell us?

Thanks

[Emerald Sea]

Originally Posted by tml

Try by passing the power cables to the windlass starting with the ground. Spent 6 weeks tracking down a very similar problem. Started by checking voltages and were all OK. After replacing the solenoid and then the motor, cleaning every contact etc still not working.
Turned out the ground cable had failed; it would carry voltage but not enough power to turn the motor. By passed the negative cable and it worked immediately. The old ground was a double run of welding cable and 40 years old. It was on my "list" to replace but hadn't made it to the top. Once I started pulling the old cable hidden in conduit it was obvious that the fine stranded un tinned copper was falling apart.
Voltmeter is one of the most valuable tools on the boat but sometimes doesn't tell the whole story.

TML. Thanks for your reply. I suspect our ground cable is fine. all connections have been cleaned. This boat is only 3 yrs old with 12mm batt cables. See my reply below regarding further voltage readings.

[Emerald Sea]

Originally Posted by smac999

Measure the voltage at input to windlass relay. Probably red and black. With and without windlass running.

SMAC99. See my reply below with further voltage readings.

[Boatwright]

Bad brushes / badly tarnished armature. You could do a quick check of the wiring and solenoids with a battery load tester hooked up at the windlass end of the wiring. You can get a load tester (also known to mechanics as a toaster) for a few dollars at any auto supply. It puts a large resistive load on the circuit and the built in meter will indicate if you have a problem on the supply side.

If not, look at the brushes/armature. Your loss of performance over time points in that direction.

[Emerald Sea]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Measure the voltage across the motor terminals when the windlass is running under load. If you get more than 10 volts, the motor is bad. If you get less than 10v, measure at upstream points, like across the solenoid output terminals, input terminals, circuit breaker, battery, until you find where you are losing voltage.

Don. Pls see additional voltage readings above. What would you make of this?

[Emerald Sea]

Originally Posted by Boatwright

Bad brushes / badly tarnished armature. You could do a quick check of the wiring and solenoids with a battery load tester hooked up at the windlass end of the wiring. You can get a load tester (also known to mechanics as a toaster) for a few dollars at any auto supply. It puts a large resistive load on the circuit and the built in meter will indicate if you have a problem on the supply side.

If not, look at the brushes/armature. Your loss of performance over time points in that direction.

Boatwright. Unfortunately Im in Cooks Bay in Moorea. Quite aways away from any supply shop. Ive undertaken other voltage readings reported above.

[Seman]

Hello Steve,
If you have a DC Amp Clamp meter, or if you can borrow one, many cruisers have them, check the Amps at the battery when the winch is running, or suppose to run. I you get over 100 A with no or min. load on the winch, you might have a short in your circuit. If this is the case, disconnect the - (Ground) wire at the winch motor & try again.
Let us know what u find.
Cheers & good luck.