Beneteau Sense vs a Cat?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Now the huge Ultime maxi trimarans are well ahead but when it was really rough the much smaller Open 60, or at least the best of them made almost an equal game. In what regards the 50 class trimaran and the Open60, only the two best are ahead of the Open60 (very tricky boats to sail the class50) all the others are behind and some are making equal game with the fastest of the smaller class 40.

Hmm, so in your unbiased way you're actually saying that some of the 50 foot tri's are beating all of the 60 foot monohulls.

Although what that has to do with the Beneteau Sense has got me beat.

[robert sailor]

Having spent the last 2 years in the Med I can tell you that until one has been there its hard to believe the number of sailboats that sail that area. I have sailed throughout the PNW and most of the South Pacific and a lot of the north Pacific and I thought I had been to areas that had a lot of sailboats but its a drop in the bucket compared to the Med.
The charter boat business is where you see a lot of Cats as for that industry they make a lot of sense. You can pack lots of people aboard (beds and heads) and you have gobs of walk around room in the cock pit and foredeck. They really do make sense in this environment.

Private ownership is a different thing and while Cats are certainly getting more popular its a very small % compared to mono hulls.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

LOL! As far as I've seen you've said very little else!

Maybe I give you that impression because I have been reacting to your notion that what is good for you regarding cruising is good for everybody else.

I had said that if I had the money probably I would have a performance trimaran (with folding arms). Contrary to most cats those are very expensive cruisers for square meter of space and have less living space than a comparably sized monohull. I would like to have one not for the space but for the way it sails. Obviously, giving the type of your boat, the way a sailboat sails is also important to you but not a determinant point for most cruisers. Most that choose a cat choose for the kind and quantity of space they offer.

For length Condo cats are pretty much unbeatable in what regards that and without abdicating of an average sailing performance are the preferred type of cats for cruisers that chose cats. They are what corresponds to the main type of cruising monohull (the one that sells more), with plenty of interior space, easy to sail and sailing with little heel.

Among the main body of cruisers that choose that type of boats (boats with a big interior and many cruising amenities) most choose a main market monohull, maybe because the boat even if not a very good sailing boat is more rewarding to sail than a condo cat, maybe because in what regards safety the monohull can re right itself, maybe because they find it more beautiful, I really don't know and I am speculating but the fact is that most prefer one type over the other by some reason.

You, instead of trying to understand the reasons for that fact insist that a cat is better for all as a cruising boat, giving the reasons why you prefer a cat, instead of trying to understand why a cat is not, by far, the best cruising boat for all.

Not being the best for all does not mean that they are not the prefect cruising boat for some, condo cats or performance cats alike, even if the reasons why a cruiser chose one over the other are not the same. Personally in what regards cats I would like to have this one and the reasons have nothing to do with the reasons why most would want a cat: I just find it is beautiful, it has sufficient interior space for me, an excellent deck and cockpit area, it is a blast to sail, even if obviously demands an experienced sailor. I would change that one for my mono-hull (even if i suspect my wife would not go for it) if I had the money and the budget to have or maintain one. That does not mean that for the money it costs I would not chose other fast monohull. Fact is that I like a lot of boats and I would like to have several, mono, cat and trimaran alike, like some rich guys that have in their garage several high performance cars

Le Breton Yachts SIG45 Fast 45ft Cruising Sailing Catamaran - YouTube

Again not a cat that would please the vast majority that would chose a cat for cruising. Yes I know I have a very particular taste in what regards cruising where sailing pleasure and fun (that in absolute terms has nothing to do with cruising) plays a big part. I also have the need to have a sailing boat that I find beautiful and I just don't like boats with a big freeboard that look more like a caravan then a sailing boat. The difference between us is that I know that I have a very particular taste in the way I like to cruise or even in what regards what i find beautiful and understand that my tastes are shared by very few.

Looking at the boat you have (a fast performance cat) it's obvious that you also have a taste for cruising that is not shared by many, the difference is that you seem to think that all should share your taste and that your's is a right and better way to cruise and your type of boat the best to do it, while I accept that there is not a right way to cruise and that there are many different tastes and needs regarding that, as there are many different and perfect sailing boats for satisfying all those different tastes and needs.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Hmm, so in your unbiased way you're actually saying that some of the 50 foot tri's are beating all of the 60 foot monohulls.

Although what that has to do with the Beneteau Sense has got me beat.

I am saying what I have always said and the the facts confirm (also on this race): In absolute therms a racing multihull is faster than a monohull but more trickier to sail, more fragile and subject to more structural stress (saying in another way, more uncomfortable)

Only very experienced top sailors can sail a racing multihull faster than a mono, specially if the conditions are rough and that has been the case on this race.

That explains why, being much faster on flat water, the first Multi50 class racer trimaran is now behind the first three 60ft monohull racers. The first three 60fters are at 2961, 2999, 3011NM from the finish while the first 50ft multihull is at 3011NM. That explains also why 2 of the five still racing are behind ALL 60ft monohull and racing among or near the 40class racers that don't even have a canting keel.

Off course if the conditions become lighter, with less wind waves and less upwind sailing (after all this is a transat with mostly downwind sailing) we will see the 50ft multihulls going faster but I will bet with you that the breakage between them (and abandons) compared with the racing 60fter will be much bigger and the percentage that will arrive to the finish much smaller.

Off course this are all expert sailors. Put on those racing 50ft multihull racers average sailors (good sailors in what regards most cruisers) and they will capsize those 50ft multihulls quickly or will go much slower that the same average sailors on the 60ft monohulls, simply because on the monohulls they can make all the errors they want and the boats will remain on their feet, even if on a zigzag course, while at the first error on the 50ft multihulls, they will capsize the boats.

Route du Rhum – Destination Guadeloupe

[RKsailsolo]

Oh please continue. This is a passionate discussion full of insights. I think I have arrived at my first clear distinction regarding mono vs multi that I will use in my next purchase decision. Now favoring mono of a design similar to those Polux has fully documented for us. (jeanneau 349 or Oceanis 35/38)

[Polux]

Originally Posted by RKsailsolo

Oh please continue. This is a passionate discussion full of insights. I think I have arrived at my first clear distinction regarding mono vs multi that I will use in my next purchase decision. Now favoring mono of a design similar to those Polux has fully documented for us. (jeanneau 349 or Oceanis 35/38)

Humm, I am not advocating a monohull over a cat neither I am advocating any particular choice regarding monohulls. In what regards my personal taste between those two I would chose an Elan 360, a Salona 35 or even a First 35

But as I said I have a particular taste in what regards cruising where fun of sailing and being entertained sailing the boat to its potential (regulating the sails) has a big part in what regards cruising.

I don't think that for the price of those boats you can find a suitable multihull, with the same kind of seaworthiness but if you have some more money available why not consider also the Fountain Pajot 36?

Most important is, first of all on a boat show to find a boat that you like, the looks and the interior. One that suits you and your family to live aboard for the intended period, regarding comfort and storage space.
But unless sailing for you is a less lot important than cruising, don't buy the boat only for that, but test sail the boats that have an interior space that fit your minimum requirements, preferably charting them for a week or so. If not a simple test sailing for some hours can be very revealing regarding the feel at the wheel, the way the rig works and the way the boat sails. Believe me, I have made that with several boats that were inside my budget and that I liked, and had an interior and storage space that suited me.

In what regards my personal taste regarding two different types of monohull I expressed it here:
Interesting Sailboats: THE ELAN MYSTERY : 354 /360
Yes, the Jeanneau 349 and the Oceanis 35 are better sailing boats than the Elan 354 but the essential remains. If you think that the Elan 360 is a difficult boat to sail read this about the Elan 320, that is a boat with a similar brief and type of hull:
Interesting Sailboats: ELAN 320, NOW WITH A NEW NAME, ELAN E3

[RKsailsolo]

Originally Posted by Polux

Humm, I am not advocating a monohull over a cat neither I am advocating any particular choice regarding monohulls. In what regards my personal taste between those two I would chose an Elan 360, a Salona 35 or even a First 35

But as I said I have a particular taste in what regards cruising where fun of sailing and being entertained sailing the boat to its potential (regulating the sails) has a big part in what regards cruising.Interesting Sailboats: ELAN 320, NOW WITH A NEW NAME, ELAN E3

Exactly!

Now the bar has shifted. I see a hot rod body with a lux interior.

[Zzmeyer]

...but the catamaran is so ugly.


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[Budawang]

This post was originally about the Beneteau Sense and how it stacks up against the production cats. Anyone out there with first hand experience of both?

[beneteau-500]

Budawang having only read your first bit and none of the other postings on this subject I will say this have all ways been a Beneteau person owned over 6 bene's the sense just does not stack up they tried to go down the same route as the bravaria Crusader model I would rather own a jennueau but having said that if I was to sell my current yacht I would look to buy a outrémmer 49 got too sail one in sth Africa last month great yacht and would be happy do the loop in one

[RKsailsolo]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

Budawang having only read your first bit and none of the other postings on this subject I will say this have all ways been a Beneteau person owned over 6 bene's the sense just does not stack up they tried to go down the same route as the bravaria Crusader model I would rather own a jennueau but having said that if I was to sell my current yacht I would look to buy a outrémmer 49 got too sail one in sth Africa last month great yacht and would be happy do the loop in one

So what's the knock against the Sense?

[seaturkey]

If youre going upwind in 40kts of wind and it wasn't your intent to do so then you are clearly doing something wrong...

Albert Einstein was a sailor... He's been quoted as saying "an effective captain is one whose passengers never stop smiling..."

I'm pretty sure the minute the Admiral starts getting tossed about the boat and looking for "handrails" I've likely done something catastrophically incorrect. And I'm likely to get my ass handed to me worse than anything the weather can dish out -

Imagine, just imagine yourself as a passenger in a plane and you hear the flight crew debating which plane flys better in a thunderstorm...? I'd get off faster than you can bat an eyelash!

If I hear one more argument from the "salty" types complaining about how "they just don't make'em like they used to" one more time I'm going to re-rant all over again!



Cmon guys -


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[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by Budawang

Good to see some passionate debate.

Cats do still seem to have the edge for what I'm interested in: a live-aboard cruiser well suited to occasional blue water passage-making in warm/temperate and tropical regions. Something that's great on the hook but I can eventually sail back to Australia from the Med (over a couple of years) with confidence. Cats still seem to be the best practical albeit expensive choice. However, I find monos aesthetically more pleasing and there's something about the Sense design that I find exciting. Realistically though, I have to find the best option for the Admiral who doesn't enjoy ocean sailing and is prone to seasickness and claustrophobia. The more "house like" the better as far as she's concerned.

Two things the admiral hates: rocking at anchor and un-seakindly sea-sickness inducing motion under sail. I'd love to know how a Sense 43/46 stacks up against a 36-40 foot cat on these two criteria. Indeed, how does it compare to other monos?

To get back to the original topic, and since your question has not really been answered, I give you my 5 cents...

This is clearly a personal choice and a question of personal likes and dislikes, so everything that follows ist just my personal opinion and reflects my tastes.

First of all, I don't like the cellar feeling in the monohulls. While chartering a boat for a week or two, where it's for a limited time in the summer and one stays in the cockpit or on deck most of the time, it's OK. But I would not like the feeling on a boat, that I intend to live on for an extended period of time. That was the first reason for me to start looking into catamarans.

Second, aesthetically I like monos better than cats just like you. Therefore, a concept like the Moody DS or the sense is very appealing. I looked at both boats on boat shows and I really like the feeling of that salon. So in terms of livability, I consider it a good compromise.

But number three, the Sense is a monohull. So it will roll downwind and it will rock at anchor like any monohull. And my admiral hates that too.

[RKsailsolo]

Originally Posted by SwissMocha

To get back to the original topic, and since your question has not really been answered, I give you my 5 cents...



This is clearly a personal choice and a question of personal likes and dislikes, so everything that follows ist just my personal opinion and reflects my tastes.



First of all, I don't like the cellar feeling in the monohulls. While chartering a boat for a week or two, where it's for a limited time in the summer and one stays in the cockpit or on deck most of the time, it's OK. But I would not like the feeling on a boat, that I intend to live on for an extended period of time. That was the first reason for me to start looking into catamarans.



Second, aesthetically I like monos better than cats just like you. Therefore, a concept like the Moody DS or the sense is very appealing. I looked at both boats on boat shows and I really like the feeling of that salon. So in terms of livability, I consider it a good compromise.



But number three, the Sense is a monohull. So it will roll downwind and it will rock at anchor like any monohull. And my admiral hates that too.

Your post sums up my sentiment almost. Monos rock at anchor when there's waves which is not constant, so realistically you can't say that as a constant. And on a downwind, you control that roll using designed in extra beam and sail controls. For one, doesn't your number two cancel it out?

[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by RKsailsolo

Your post sums up my sentiment almost. Monos rock at anchor when there's waves which is not constant, so realistically you can't say that as a constant. And on a downwind, you control that roll using designed in extra beam and sail controls. For one, doesn't your number two cancel it out?

It's true, no constant. However, last year when I cruised in Greece, I had two rocky nights in two weeks. Do I remember the quiet nights? No sir

For the roll, I have not so much experience myself. But here is a Youtube link I found on the Website of Bobby Schenk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_qjC1hE27A#t=12

But everything is a compromise and the mono people will tell us, that a multihull will slap, which might for some be more annoying than the rolling...

Apart from aesthetics, the choice for me depends very much on the intended use. And this is really the core of the issue. Right now I charter for vacation use and the choice for that is usually monos, because it's much cheaper and it's about sailing.

When I'm done working I plan to buy a boat and go cruising. And when I'm cruising and living aboard it's not so much about sailing and/or how the boat looks, but much more about staying at anchorages or in marinas and how comfortable I am doing so. Okey, it's still about looks and in the end, it's all purely emotional