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Old 07-01-2017, 05:38   #106
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
..
I don't see the stern being beamy on the Super Maramu, a beamy stern would mean the boat would more easily broach, not a quality you want in a bluewater cruiser. A beamy stern is usually done to increase space in the owners cabin aft, also known as the fornicatorium.
...
Sure, that is why the IMOCA boats used on the Vendee Globe have these sterns:



even if they sail alone and not for being able to be steered on autopilot on 60k winds and 6 meters waves or to resist broaching.

I hope you are not going to say that it is not as beamy as it looks
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Old 07-01-2017, 06:20   #107
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

These beamy boats also known as pizza boats are usually fairly flat and this promotes surfing which makes them very fast off the wind. Carrying these design influences into cruising boats makes a lot of sense as a new 40 ft boat has the room of an older 50 ft boat.
The race boats and the cruise boats are very different machines, look at the draft on the race boat, look at the size of the bulb, these boats are in a different league than shoal draft lightly ballast pizza cruising designs. I'm not suggesting that modern pizza cruisers are not safe but they certainly don't even come close to the self righting of their racing brothers.
These boats need dual rudders to operate properly as a single rudder would ventilate very easily and broach in strong gusts. These are the state of the art race machines, no denying that. Some sailors are reluctant to buy into the dual rudders as they are not protected by the keel and that's fair enough, certainly the racers are experiencing the downside of unprotected rudders but all in all the designs are pretty cool.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:14   #108
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Polux, don't get your sheets in a knot. I know there are hundreds of ways to skin a Cat so everyone has their own view of what works for them and isn't that great! You like boats that have a performance edge and so do I but I don't want to buy one big enough that I'd still have the performance because they are too much money. You do a great job on this site but sometimes I think you are related to our friend Donald. Cheers, R
I like the boats I like for personal reasons regarding sailing and way of life. I don't want to sell what I like regarding sailing to others even if there are many, including liveaboards and circumnavigators that share my preferences in what the type of sailing boats they prefere and I am not talking about all modern sailboats, but just about a particular type of performance cruiser.

It is you that keep saying that the type of boats I prefere are only good or adapted to Mediterranean sailing (against all evidence) and just because I have sailed the last years on the med (never mind all the others that sail and even circumnavigate or liveaborad on that type of boat).

If your egocentric point of view or my liberal point of view in what concerns the variety of boats different cruisers prefere for cruising puts you more close to Donald than me I don't know. Don't know also what Donald thinks about the subject but he does not seem much liberal to me.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:21   #109
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by CbroTheDude
conservative interiors, without having to justify it in "seaworthiness", "comfort" or "security"
The idea behind a "conservative" interior is that you should not have any sharp edges around, the idea of a narrow interior is that you should not have to walk in either direction before you can brace yourself, the idea is that you should not be thrown around like a pinball in rough seas in a vast open spacious interior. We were talking about bluewater sailboats, and these interiors are very suitable for that type of sailing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Sure, that is why the IMOCA boats used on the Vendee Globe have these sterns:
You're confusing bluewater cruising boats with boats designed for racing. Different dynamics. And yeah, it is to get more space in the owners cabins aft, that is why many mass produced boats have a beamy stern. It's not for improved sailing characteristics, you don't want a cruising boat to gain severe weather helm etc.


Edit.
Gotta love that "keel" and those twin blade rudders
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:29   #110
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
You're confusing bluewater cruising boats with boats designed for racing. Different dynamics. And yeah, it is to get more space in the owners cabins aft, that is why many mass produced boats have a beamy stern.

Edit.
Gotta love that "keel".
Stability and basically the way they sail are based on the same principles, namely on the role that is played by those big sterns in what regards preventing rolling, increasing stability and contributing for directional stability downwind. Also in what regards sailing upwind with smaller heel angles.

It is not me but the designers of these type of cruisers that say that they based hull shape design on IMOCA boat's hulls and many know about what they are talking about since they have in fact designed IMOCA boats or the smaller 40class racers, with the same type of hull.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:39   #111
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

For downwind sure, but in a bluewater cruiser you want all around sailing ability combined with safety. You don't want to gain severe weather helm as she heels either etc etc. You want the boat to be more narrow and evenly balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
It is not me but the designers of these type of cruisers that say that they based hull shape design on...
Then perhaps you should start just posting links instead. Besides, I think you will find manufactures out there that do not design their bluewater cruisers this way.


Edit.
Here's an example and a newcomer to the bluewater cruising market. Kraken Yachts | The home of Kraken Luxury Yachts
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:41   #112
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

This topic has gotten WAAAAY off topic. It seems to have become, "Polux and his taste vs. everyone else"; also known as, "I'm right, you're wrong". I suspect it is because the boat he, himself, owns is an Italian look-alike to the "modern" boats mentioned.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:06   #113
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
For downwind sure, but in a bluewater cruiser you want all around sailing ability combined with safety. You don't want to gain severe weather helm as she heels either etc etc. You want the boat to be more narrow and evenly balanced.
...
I have told you that these type of boats with this type of hull are particularly easy on an autopilot and that part of their design has to do with just that. Severe weather helm is not good for an autopilot and you can be sure these boats are very well balanced and even if they don't have a stellar performance upwind they have a good one.

But you should not be interested in that since you own a Amel Super Maramu and I doubt that your boat has a better performance upwind compared with that Sense.

Another member forum that has a sister ship (and loves his Amel) says that in what regards performance upwind performance his boat is worse than his previous beamy Bavaria, pointing not so well. Off course in many other ways he likes more his Amel than the Bavaria.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:17   #114
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey View Post
This topic has gotten WAAAAY off topic. It seems to have become, "Polux and his taste vs. everyone else"; also known as, "I'm right, you're wrong". I suspect it is because the boat he, himself, owns is an Italian look-alike to the "modern" boats mentioned.
I don't think so. This thread was about modern boats even if some had brought to these thread old outdated designs that have nothing with the boat that was being discussed here.

Regarding my boat the only thing it has similar to the boats I have been discussing, boats with a hull similar to the Oceanis 55 (hulls that have their origin on Open boats) is that it is a relatively modern boat (2007) even if already slightly outdated in what regards hull design.

Regarding the type of design and hull it has nothing in common with the Beneteau Oceanis 55 or the Sense 57. Only by ignorance can someone claim that they have something similar. Not better or worse but pointing to different types of sailing and different type of sailor's preferences.

The type of hull of my boat has has origin IRC racers, not Open racers. Completely different types of boast.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:25   #115
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post

Edit.
Had the Boreal been that beamy it would have needed twin blade rudders. Which is another bad design for ocean cruising yachts for the obvious reason that there is greater propensity for them to be damaged, twisted or even broken off. They are even worse as they are not in line with the keel and therefore more vulnerable. In fact, with all the debris-strewn seas of today a skeg-hung rudder is more important than ever before imo.

But I digress now.


A hull like that of the Boreal would be well served with dual rudders. What it has however is a single rudder and two dagger boards.
There is no reason why dual rudders (when properly engineered) should not have a place on a cruising boat. Allures is a good example.
We've been over this, but a skeg does not make your rudder stronger, nor makes your boat more seaworthy. You will not find many naval architects still claiming this.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:26   #116
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

I've sailed a 55 on a delivery from Hamble to Albufeira. Nice powerful, comfortable boat and easily handled. Only downside was the very open saloon with no handholds, quite hazardous when the sea was bumpy. We had to rig ropes fore and aft in the saloon crossing Biscay.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:33   #117
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Only downside was the very open saloon with no handholds, quite hazardous when the sea was bumpy. We had to rig ropes fore and aft in the saloon crossing Biscay.
It's "modern" design not that "outdated" interior design of old you know.

Now picture anything more than a bumpy sea in that open cockpit and in that open spacious interior. Not so nice. Therefore the Sense is more suitable for calm waters and for being social in the docks. Hence dock queen.

Disclaimer
Yeah the Skipper could bark out orders requesting ropes be rigged to left right and center, would look like a ****ing rock climbing excursion in there, the crew would have helmets and harnesses and everything. They would make it work somehow.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:50   #118
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
It's "modern" design not that "outdated" interior design of old you know.



Now picture anything more than a bumpy sea in that open cockpit and in that open spacious interior. Not so nice. Therefore the Sense is more suitable for calm waters and for being social in the docks. Hence dock queen.


Pretty much took the words out of my mouth...
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:42   #119
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
It's "modern" design not that "outdated" interior design of old you know.

Now picture anything more than a bumpy sea in that open cockpit and in that open spacious interior. Not so nice. Therefore the Sense is more suitable for calm waters and for being social in the docks. Hence dock queen.

Disclaimer
Yeah the Skipper could bark out orders requesting ropes be rigged to left right and center, would look like a ****ing rock climbing excursion in there, the crew would have helmets and harnesses and everything. They would make it work somehow.
On any new boat a owner can request the dealer to mount the hand holds he wants were he wants them. Not a difficult job and with costs very low regarding the boat price.

Yes they would make it work. the boat sails with less heel and that helps a lot in what regards moving and overall safety and yes on rough seas one should have an harness and more than anything it will be the harness that will maintain the sailor in place.

Open racers have that kind of very open deck and even in smaller 40ft racers I never heard they have problems with that, even in very bad conditions:

The superior stability, the smaller heeling and the much smaller roll are all factors than more than compensate that big cockpit, that is very useful as a living space too.

Look as an old hulls roll through the waves, not getting enough speed to escape breaking waves from behind.

When the boat rolls a big part of the overall stability is lost and if a breaking wave catch it on the end of one of those deep rolls the stability (the RM) that it can offer to prevent a capsize is just reduced about a half regarding what he had when not heeled.
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:26   #120
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
On any new boat a owner can request the dealer to mount the hand holds he wants were he wants them.
Assumes he understands that he needs them to begin with, that said; I'm sure he can request the interior to be bluewater friendly also, as well as request sharp corners to be rounded. Maybe doable if requested early into the build and if paying extra. You are still going to get thrown around in a vast spacious interior regardless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux
Open racers have that kind of very open*deck*and even in smaller 40ft racers I never heard they have problems with that, even in very bad conditions
That's racers not bluewater cruisers crewed by a couple, and an open deck like the one on the Sense is never safe.

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Looks like an old wooden boat.


I think something like this would perform better. Kraken Yachts | The home of Kraken Luxury Yachts


In any case, Polux.
Perhaps you should consult krakenyachts or manufactures in general about hull design and on how to "properly" design a bluewater sailboat rather than telling us? Could perhaps become lucrative for you.
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