Cockpit sizes of Tashiba, Tayana, Baba, Cabo Rico, Hans Christian

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by GWB

That is incorrect actually. The speeds will be much closer together in light air, and further apart in heavier air, assuming you are talking about modern race boats.

You are showing your ignorance and it is becoming clear that you don't know what you are talking about

Well I certainly don't know everything about sailing but a modern race boat sailing off the wind can do hull speed in 8-10 knots of wind but of course in those conditions a Westsail 32 would just sail right by.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by GWB

Westsail 32 waterline length - 27.5'
Ranger 33 waterline length - 26.25'

If the Ranger 33 is loaded, it will not surf as well as it could. The hull shape is designed with surfing in mind. Do you understand now?

What part of "(assuming you neglect surfing the hull etc)" don't you understand? Maybe I some 3nglish reading sources for stuedy....

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Well I certainly don't know everything about sailing but a modern race boat sailing off the wind can do hull speed in 8-10 knots of wind but of course in those conditions a Westsail 32 would just sail right by.

Robert,

Don't you know nuttin'? Westsail 32s are well-known to be the Ferraris of yacht racing. Loaded down to the max, they sail right past those J Class slow pokes. I understand they're even being considered for the next America's Cup, which will make for some awesome racing.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Since some folks are calling my credibility into question, I compiled the below facts for their edification. Said below information is not intended to malign any individuals, nor boats/boat types. Hopefully it'll clear up some misconceptions that a few members here on CF have.


Firstly, comparing a Ranger 33’ to a Westsail 32 is a VERY skewed comparison. Since in point of fact, a Westsail 32 is 40’ long, & she displaces as much (or more) than most 40’ racer/cruisers. So if one cares to compare her performance to that of a 40’ racer/cruiser, the differences will be even more embarrassing. Consider comparing one to C&C 41’, PHRF 74. A boat of approximately similar size, that'll carry a load well.

Quite frankly, a Ranger 33’ could outsail a Westsail 32 while towing a shopping cart. In light air, or a breeze. To give you an idea of what the Ranger sails like. One summer evening I took 10 friends down to the San Diego Convention Center to anchor out & listen to a concert on my Ranger 33'.
Well, being 23, everyone drank their weight in liquor that evening. Including running the blender quite a lot, courtesy of my engine powered inverter. So that when it was time to head home to Shelter Island, there was but enough gas in the engine to let us pick up the anchor under power, period. Then the tank was dry. So from there the trip was under sail. This with a dozen people onboard, & 3/4ton of my personal liveaboard gear. Mind you when we started home the winds were all of 4-6kts, & pretty soon they dwindled to 2-4kts.

Knowing quite well how to sail, coupled with the boat’s performance I wasn’t worried. Several drunks crashed down below, & the rest of us smoked cigars, & told lies, while we headed for the barn. And if memory serves, it took us about 3hrs to cover say 9nm, with half of it being against the incoming tide. Which, I dare anyone to do such a thing in a Westsail, or other “cruising boat”.

Note too that a Ranger 33 is not, nor never was designed to be a boat that surfs off of the wind. But they surely ain’t slow downwind. And are much, much faster than your stereotypical cruiser. With the sails well trimmed, or otherwise. https://www.latitude38.com/features/bomRanger33.htm


In case one desires empirical proof of the performance of different boat types. Let’s look at a couple of common ones; a Tayana 37 (43’ long), & a Serendipity 43’ (a mid-level racer/cruiser from the early 80’s). These numbers are taken from the Polar Projections for each boat:

Tayana 37
wind 5kts/angle 035/speed 2.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 035/speed 2.5kts, wind15kts/angle 035/speed 3kts
wind 5kts/angle 075/speed 3.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 075/speed 5.2kts, wind15kts/angle 075/speed 7kts
wind 5kts/angle 120/speed 3.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 120/speed 5kts, wind15kts/angle 120/speed 7.5kts

Serendipity 43
wind 5kts/angle 035/speed 6.5kts, wind 10kts/angle 035/speed 7.7kts, wind15kts/angle 035/speed 8kts
wind 5kts/angle 075/speed 6.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 075/speed 7.5kts, wind15kts/angle 075/speed 8.5kts
wind 5kts/angle 120/speed 4.5kts, wind 10kts/angle 120/speed 6.2kts, wind15kts/angle 120/speed 8kts

NOTE: In winds of 12kts+, with the wind on or aft of the beam, a Serendipity 43’ will begin to surf, & thus greatly exceed the speeds posted above. And she’ll do so even with several tons of gear & crew onboard. Ditto on other points of sail.
So: As they say, “The math don’t lie”.


PS: My aploligies for my earlier hyperbole about the amount of wind required to get a cruiser up to hull speed. Since in the case of a Tayana 37 it takes 15kts+ of wind, on or aft of the beam. As to the upwind numbers, good luck! It'll take a LOT.

[Elie]

I believe that only the water length has tu be considered, along with the sail- Displacement ratio is a very important variable to evaluate the speed in light air and the surfing ability of any sailboat. On that matter, a Westsail 32, is realy poor performer in light winds, and is much too heavy to go beyond its hull speed in any wind short of a hurricane. This design is based in antiquated and empirical ideas of Collin Archer for boat that would stand upwind heavy weather sailing in shorts waves as found in the Thames estuary , by its massive weigth, and great solidity.
The IMOCA very modern open 60 racing sailboats of Vendée Globe Challenge has demonstrated that light boats, with wide stern, and powerfull rigs sail constantly much above the 'hull speed'(often double of that theorical limit!) in any weather, and any sailing angle.

[W32Solstice]

I see this thread has turned into the typical bash-fest on the W32... again.
So many anonymous experts with so many posts and opinions, it gets confusing to say the least.

I can't be called an expert with few posts and only 15,000 or so ocean miles over a 35 year period on a W32 and I won't even try.

I would think it should be common courtesy if nothing else to state your actual experience on the boat that you so despise.

Sometime back Oregonian was involved in a thread that went down this same path and if I may quote Robert Perry, "I'd listen to Oregonian if I were you".

How people that have never sailed a W32 can have so much expertise and downright hatred toward them is just hard to believe.

Enough rambling.

Steve

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by W32Solstice

I see this thread has turned into the typical bash-fest on the W32... again.

Funny how we drift. I have no doubt that I'd generally prefer to race over around three corners or from point A to a semi-close point B while in a Ranger. On th other hand I'd prefer to cruise on a Westsail 32, or for that matter a 28.

There is an old expression, meant for a different field, but which perhaps applies here in a broader sense. "There are courses for horses, and horses for courses."

BUT if I look up and check the title or the subject line, these boats, Westsail and Ranger (the horses) are even mentioned and the specifics of the sailing conditions (the courses) were very limited, but the most basic criterion in the question was the size of the cockpit (a very specific and limited field of horses).

[GWB]

Since its hard to know how much on the thread is wishful thinking, and how much is factual I'm posting this video only to make the point that you are wrong on the light air ability of heavy boats. This shows a Westsail 32 in 8k true wind (12 apparent) with working sails (no genoa) doing 6 knots. Note: It could be going faster with the correct sails up.
Please post a similar video of your Ranger 33 in similar conditions.
Thanks

https://youtu.be/KfhnPAU7r1Y

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Since some folks are calling my credibility into question, I compiled the below facts for their edification. Said below information is not intended to malign any individuals, nor boats/boat types. Hopefully it'll clear up some misconceptions that a few members here on CF have.


Firstly, comparing a Ranger 33’ to a Westsail 32 is a VERY skewed comparison. Since in point of fact, a Westsail 32 is 40’ long, & she displaces as much (or more) than most 40’ racer/cruisers. So if one cares to compare her performance to that of a 40’ racer/cruiser, the differences will be even more embarrassing. Consider comparing one to C&C 41’, PHRF 74. A boat of approximately similar size, that'll carry a load well.

Quite frankly, a Ranger 33’ could outsail a Westsail 32 while towing a shopping cart. In light air, or a breeze. To give you an idea of what the Ranger sails like. One summer evening I took 10 friends down to the San Diego Convention Center to anchor out & listen to a concert on my Ranger 33'.
Well, being 23, everyone drank their weight in liquor that evening. Including running the blender quite a lot, courtesy of my engine powered inverter. So that when it was time to head home to Shelter Island, there was but enough gas in the engine to let us pick up the anchor under power, period. Then the tank was dry. So from there the trip was under sail. This with a dozen people onboard, & 3/4ton of my personal liveaboard gear. Mind you when we started home the winds were all of 4-6kts, & pretty soon they dwindled to 2-4kts.

Knowing quite well how to sail, coupled with the boat’s performance I wasn’t worried. Several drunks crashed down below, & the rest of us smoked cigars, & told lies, while we headed for the barn. And if memory serves, it took us about 3hrs to cover say 9nm, with half of it being against the incoming tide. Which, I dare anyone to do such a thing in a Westsail, or other “cruising boat”.

Note too that a Ranger 33 is not, nor never was designed to be a boat that surfs off of the wind. But they surely ain’t slow downwind. And are much, much faster than your stereotypical cruiser. With the sails well trimmed, or otherwise. https://www.latitude38.com/features/bomRanger33.htm


In case one desires empirical proof of the performance of different boat types. Let’s look at a couple of common ones; a Tayana 37 (43’ long), & a Serendipity 43’ (a mid-level racer/cruiser from the early 80’s). These numbers are taken from the Polar Projections for each boat:

Tayana 37
wind 5kts/angle 035/speed 2.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 035/speed 2.5kts, wind15kts/angle 035/speed 3kts
wind 5kts/angle 075/speed 3.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 075/speed 5.2kts, wind15kts/angle 075/speed 7kts
wind 5kts/angle 120/speed 3.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 120/speed 5kts, wind15kts/angle 120/speed 7.5kts

Serendipity 43
wind 5kts/angle 035/speed 6.5kts, wind 10kts/angle 035/speed 7.7kts, wind15kts/angle 035/speed 8kts
wind 5kts/angle 075/speed 6.2kts, wind 10kts/angle 075/speed 7.5kts, wind15kts/angle 075/speed 8.5kts
wind 5kts/angle 120/speed 4.5kts, wind 10kts/angle 120/speed 6.2kts, wind15kts/angle 120/speed 8kts

NOTE: In winds of 12kts+, with the wind on or aft of the beam, a Serendipity 43’ will begin to surf, & thus greatly exceed the speeds posted above. And she’ll do so even with several tons of gear & crew onboard. Ditto on other points of sail.
So: As they say, “The math don’t lie”.


PS: My aploligies for my earlier hyperbole about the amount of wind required to get a cruiser up to hull speed. Since in the case of a Tayana 37 it takes 15kts+ of wind, on or aft of the beam. As to the upwind numbers, good luck! It'll take a LOT.

[Elie]

Originally Posted by W32Solstice

I see this thread has turned into the typical bash-fest on the W32... again.
So many anonymous experts with so many posts and opinions, it gets confusing to say the least.

I can't be called an expert with few posts and only 15,000 or so ocean miles over a 35 year period on a W32 and I won't even try.

I would think it should be common courtesy if nothing else to state your actual experience on the boat that you so despise.

Sometime back Oregonian was involved in a thread that went down this same path and if I may quote Robert Perry, "I'd listen to Oregonian if I were you".

How people that have never sailed a W32 can have so much expertise and downright hatred toward them is just hard to believe.

Enough rambling.

Steve

I hope that I was not misinterpreted in my previous post. I'm not saying that a Westsail do not have qualities, among them comfort at sea in 'normal' weather, a good hability to navigate offshore in terrible conditions. One the main vertue of this Collin Archer design is its hability to stay hove to in a blow, in comfort and security. That is a vertue of long keeled, heavy displacement sailboat. And traditional design has its supporters and that is well. Among them Lyne and Harry Pardley that sailed traditional design around the world safely and with great pleasure as I can infere. Once that said, performance wise, modern, lighter designs have a clear advantage.

[GWB]

Further to this, here are 2 more pictures of a Westsail 32 in light air. Please post similar pictures of your Ranger 33

Originally Posted by GWB

Since its hard to know how much on the thread is wishful thinking, and how much is factual I'm posting this video only to make the point that you are wrong on the light air ability of heavy boats. This shows a Westsail 32 in 8k true wind (12 apparent) with working sails (no genoa) doing 6 knots. Note: It could be going faster with the correct sails up.
Please post a similar video of your Ranger 33 in similar conditions.
Thanks

[oregonian]

First off, my apologies to OCTAVIOUS and BUZZSTAR for the thread drift. I first came up on this thread because I had direct personal experience with all the boats in the OP except the Tashiba 36, and witnessed a number of falsehoods being posted. I have delivered 3 different Tayana 37’s. Thanks, UNCIVILIZED, for the very interesting polars you presented. You say “the math don’t lie”. Well, Please tell us, Is the Tayana 37 using a fixed 3 bladed propeller and mushroom styled, protruding thru-hulls? Or is it using a folding or feathering prop and flush mounted thru-hulls like the Serendipity? That is important to know because it is worth ¾ of a knot. Or about 3 knots of wind. Does the boat have the optional 500 pounds of teak deck? Those are owner choices. Are you certain that both boats were prepared equally or simply using standard equipment? But yes, It might be fair to compare a Tayana 37 to a Serendipity 43.
And speaking of Math, This is for you to answer ELIE. You claim a 225 nm day on your rather large boat. That’s pretty good! That exceeds your hull speed by 9%. Pretty good! Well, I have recorded a 188nm day on a Westsail 32. That is also pretty good. It also exceeds hull speed by 11%. I also have a 187, 185 and 184 behind me. All equal your 9%. This is a boat with heritage that is 120 years old. How in H--- is that possible with all the advancements in Naval Architecture? I once crewed on a W-32 that recorded 1774nm in a 10 day period. Do the Math on that!
It has been mentioned before and repeated eloquently by RBK, that the typical difference in cruising speeds between two VERY different boats of about 35’, is 1/4k . If the Hotdog 35 and the Crabcrusher 35 are both fully loaded, and prepared for cruising, then the Crabcrusher may very well arrive first. And yes, that’s going to weather, reaching, or running.
Thankyou
PS, Don’t forget to put a proper dinghy on the deck of that Hotdog 35. You need it at the anchorage.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by GWB

Since its hard to know how much on the thread is wishful thinking, and how much is factual I'm posting this video only to make the point that you are wrong on the light air ability of heavy boats. This shows a Westsail 32 in 8k true wind (12 apparent) with working sails (no genoa) doing 6 knots. Note: It could be going faster with the correct sails up.
Please post a similar video of your Ranger 33 in similar conditions.
Thanks

https://youtu.be/KfhnPAU7r1Y

Nobody wrote that a Westsail wasn't capable of sailing six knots, clearly they can. The posts in question were the ones claiming the Westsail was able to sail faster than a modern racing boat in the same conditions. Nobody is bashing the Westsail... just the unrealistic claims which defy the laws of physics, aerodynamics and hydrodynamics.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Nobody wrote that a Westsail wasn't capable of sailing six knots, clearly they can. The posts in question were the ones claiming the Westsail was able to sail faster than a modern racing boat in the same conditions. Nobody is bashing the Westsail... just the unrealistic claims which defy the laws of physics, aerodynamics and hydrodynamics.

What Ken said!

And look at it this way. Lots of guys who race spend a buttload of money on their boats every year in efforts to make them go 0.02kts faster, right? Which, the speed of their boats tends to be reflected in their ratings. Much of it specifically being taken into account IN their rating. Since the "P" in PHRF means Performance, & in PHRF if you do better, your rating gets changed to reflect as much.

Thus given that guys who race want to win, I'm doubting that if certain cruising designs were on average blindingly fast, then their ratings wouldn't show them as slow. Other racers would crap porcupines backwards were they to routinely get their asses handed to them by crab crushers. And they'd gang together with torches & pitchforks to get the ratings changed on such designs. Make sense?

I categorically do not hate certain types of boats. I'm less of a fan of some designs, but everyone's entitled to their own tastes. However I try & keep some things about sailing based in reality. Such as knowing that an Express 37' wouldn't make an ideal long distance cruising boat, as they just ain't designed to carry that much weight. And their bows are too fine to support 500lbs of anchors, windlass, & chain. Much as a Westsail 32 will never be a world class buoy racer.

BTW, some of ya'll might want to switch to decaf. As this topic's hotter than the multi's don't sink/mono's don't flip mayhem, er, discussion.


PS: Instruments, unless properly calibrated, can & do at times fib. My earlier Polars numbers came from USYRU generated documents (a major racing regulatory & measuring sailing body).

And again, a Westsail 32 is a 40' boat! Add a 7' sprit to a Ranger 33' & then compare the two.

[Jim Cate]

And do remember that the Ranger 33, while a nice boat, was not designed as a race boat. It was a typical racer/cruiser of its era. If you really want to compare the W-32 to a modern design, try a Pogo 30 or those many other (mostly European) designs that Pollux showcases all the time. Obviously not big load carriers, but folks seem to do some cruising in them.

Everyone's experiences are different, I suppose, but I have not sailed in company with one of these very fast W-32s yet. The ones that I've encountered don't do all that well in light airs nor upwind... just as their hull shape and wetted area would suggest. Sarabande showed that if one did good race preparation, bought good sails and sailed the boat very well, then a W-32 could and did do very well in a downwind and reaching ocean race. It was a great performance, but does not offer proof that even that well prepared boats would do as well in other conditions, such as upwind in light airs.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

All this rhetoric stimulated me to do some research. I went back into the records of the various transpacs, and particularly the data for Saraband.

In the 1988 Pacific Cup race (that she so famously won on corrected time) she finished in 14d 07h. The approximate distance is 2050 miles, so this works out to about 143 miles/day. This race reported winds from 15 to 22 knots, fairly light for that bit of ocean. The boat had a full racing crew and used kites whenever possible, ie, driving the boat harder than any cruiser is likely to.

I didn't find any other verifiable results for W-32s in that race, but there have been several entries in the singlehand transpac (distance approximately 2100 miles):

1978 My Star 16d 03h or 130 m/d
2006 Sunquest 19d 06h or 109 m/d
2010 Saraband 17d 03h or 122 m/d
2012 Tortuga 17d 02h or 122 m/d

I couldn't tell from my data source if these were single or doublehanded crews, but all were racing to the best of their abilities, as one does whilst racing.


Note that these are races with primarily moderate to strong trade winds once away from the coast, and the sailing angles are all off the wind.

I leave it to others to decide what the data mean, and to estimate the frequency with which one could expect the 180+ m/d figures reported in this thread... especially cruising!

Jim