Carbon based cruising sails

[DGH]

Hi Everyone,
I can't find any discussions around this sailcloth topic since 2014 and a bit has changed since then.
Less than a year ago I installed a new staysail on a Selden line drive furler and a torsion stay using Dimension Polyant GPL Lite Skin carbon cloth, tri radial cut, for the 20 sq metre sail. This is on a 48 ft yacht displacing around 17 tonnes underway.
So far I am very impressed with the GPL Lite Skin for the staysail. The construction is glued and sewn panels and it does have a U V cover. It holds shape well and is very trimmable for various wind angles. But this is only a fairly small sail and so far it has only sailed less than a thousand miles.
Because of it light weight and stability I would like to consider this fabric for a new furling genoa, around 63 sq m and furling mainsail, around 45 sq m.
Does anyone have any real time experience with larger sails in this material?

[Dockhead]

I am using a similar cloth for my sails -- carbon/technora laminate, with taffeta on both sides.

Three years and many thousands of miles later, I am extremely pleased. The sailmaker told me that the new carbon fibers, for some reason, are not nearly as brittle and vulnerable to flogging as previously available fibers were. I don't understand whether this is true or not, or how it could be true, but I've experienced no problems in many thousands of miles. My sails are still virtually like new.

[DGH]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I am using a similar cloth for my sails -- carbon/technora laminate, with taffeta on both sides.

Three years and many thousands of miles later, I am extremely pleased. The sailmaker told me that the new carbon fibers, for some reason, are not nearly as brittle and vulnerable to flogging as previously available fibers were. I don't understand whether this is true or not, or how it could be true, but I've experienced no problems in many thousands of miles. My sails are still virtually like new.

Dear Dockhead,
Thanks for your reply. Yours was the very interesting discussion from 2014 I was referring to. Can you tell me who is the manufacturer of your carbon/tecnora? I would like to be able to compare it with the DP Lite Skin carbon. I currently have a 5 yr old DP laminate big headsail (150%) in fair shape but badly mildewed and a HydraNet main 7 years old in very good shape but it is heavy, so I am looking at some changes. Boat now back in Sydney.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DGH

Dear Dockhead,
Thanks for your reply. Yours was the very interesting discussion from 2014 I was referring to. Can you tell me who is the manufacturer of your carbon/tecnora? I would like to be able to compare it with the DP Lite Skin carbon. I currently have a 5 yr old DP laminate big headsail (150%) in fair shape but badly mildewed and a HydraNet main 7 years old in very good shape but it is heavy, so I am looking at some changes. Boat now back in Sydney.

The cloth is Bainbridge.

[davecalvert]

We have been making more and more carbon lite skin sails. I like this cloth a lot, light weight, strong, and very low stretch. We also use the Carbon GXLD cruise laminates for the larger sails. This has Carbon fibers with a heavier Spectra taffeta on each side. The cost is close to Hydra Net but, with MUCH less stretch and higher strength. This is the way to go on boats in the 55 ft plus sizes.
Carbon is not much affected by UV and, as long as it is protected with the taffetas abrasion is less of a factor.

[CHRIS V CLEMENT]

We had a black composite racing main and 2 genoas on a 1980 Vintage Jeanneau Selection 37 sloop named BLADE RUNNER. We raced her hard for 8 years from 2005 to 2013 with those sails. Even after 8 years of hard Gulf of Mexico racing, the shape and finish on those sails was still race worthy. These sails were panel built sails from the North Sail loft in Houston, Texas. The boat is still racing in Equador. We did not order 3DL construction, because there were delamination issues at the time with Kevlar and 3DL. We chose the more durable paneled sail at the time. Based on that success, we probably would stick with paneled carbon. If it aint broke, don't fix it !!!!

[sailon46]

Have been sailing on and off carbon sails that were new in 2010 Quantum. In the Caribbean the glue does not hold does not do good in the low latitudes sun. The Jib is toast and the main is in the sail locker for emergency use only.
You can see me racing the sails around Tortolla with the Carbons on in my log on attachment pic.
Ernie on the Mary Jane

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by davecalvert

We have been making more and more carbon lite skin sails. I like this cloth a lot, light weight, strong, and very low stretch. We also use the Carbon GXLD cruise laminates for the larger sails. This has Carbon fibers with a heavier Spectra taffeta on each side. The cost is close to Hydra Net but, with MUCH less stretch and higher strength. This is the way to go on boats in the 55 ft plus sizes.
Carbon is not much affected by UV and, as long as it is protected with the taffetas abrasion is less of a factor.

How does it hold up with regard to flaking on a boom, or in a sail bag, such as is done with racing jibs? And on boats under 55', but say 40' & up, what's your go to fabric? Both for monohulls, & for multi's (where loads are higher). Comments on Hydranet in such applications, for sails of say 3:1 aspect ratio???

Thanks!

[TheThunderbird]

I read a similar thread on Sailing Anarchy (2015)

overall... The merit of Tri-radial dacron cut emerges, if longevity is considered, as delamination (less than in the past), mildew, and the progressive disintegration of the resin finish emerge on any laminates.

Hydranet is not much appraised (cost, weight, handling)

to me, it is difficult to evaluate any laminate, as far as they seem to be all alike...(comparisons are made difficult, and l defy any amateur to distinguish the merits among the many fiber flavours...).

More, it seems to be like that:
Cruising: double taffeta
Cruiser racer: one side taffeta (sounding quite nonsensical imo)
racer: film on film
Too simplistic, isn't it ??

I am keen of any answer to Uncivilized (!) about flaking the main on the boom (54 ft)

[TJ D]

Hi, we have not used the cloth specifically that you mention, but we are using Carbon/Technora laminates, and are also extremely pleased.

We bought these sails in San Francisco in 2013, have cruised from there to Europe to date, with a good mix of tropical heat and strong winds thrown at them, and these sails still have the shape they had when new. I see no evidence of them falling apart, delaminating, mildewing, etc. None of the gripes associated with laminates.

These are Quantum's 'Fusion' sails, 70/30 carbon/technora. They are paneled, 'load path' construction. I sort of think that the 'load path' idea on a paneled sail is a bit of a gimmick, but nonetheless, they're good. The main is about 900 square feet, the jib about 600.

When it comes time to replace these, we'll go with something similar, just with a square top main next time.

TJ

[1paulg]

I have tri radial hydranet sails that we're made in 2006 - the boat has done 15000 nm since then and overall I would say they still have plenty of life although starting to show a little stretch - they have certainly had reasonable loads with a reasonable amount of sailing in fresh winds - also the main is a fairly powerful rounded leach for a cat so has had fairly big loads .
From what I have seen I would definitely be happy to get the same again although they are definitely fairly heavy I would have thought in comparison to other options

[SailRedemption]

We have a 47' Kaufman cutter with a high aspect rig. We just put on order with our local Ullman loft for some cruise laminate for a new mainsail and Yankee.

Both will be tri radial and will be out of Contender CDX 9 cruise laminate. The sailmaker sail the sails would have been much heavier and just about the same price if we went with a good dacron due to the fact that the dacron would have been very heavy cloth and, in places, doubled up.

Not carbon laminate, but I thought I would add my thoughts on laminate that we just ordered.

[Kestrahl]

The big question is how well is the Liteskin going to hold up long distance cruising. From what i've seen probably not so good and not using a UV cover is brave. GPL liteskin is a racing fabric and will probably last about the same time as if they were race sails - about 3-4 seasons depending on amount of use. I had a customer who 1sails talked into their 4T product on the basis of being lightweight for cruising, 3 years later it had cracks and needed replacing. Unfortunately it is hard to get away from a heavy sail for serious cruising. Hydra-net is a bit lighter than dacron but not significant. The cruise laminates with decent weight taffeta also aren't light.

DH. Bainbridge stopped making your cloth. I presume it was CFG (carbon fiber grid). I have two headsails made out of this also. DP appear to have also stopped the GPL taffeta and only offer spectra cruising laminates in the normal yacht range (GLXD for superyachts). Part of the reason is this type of construction became unaffordable compared to membrane sails - which have far superior shape holding to triradial and are now cheaper, or should be.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

. . .DH. Bainbridge stopped making your cloth. I presume it was CFG (carbon fiber grid). I have two headsails made out of this also. DP appear to have also stopped the GPL taffeta and only offer spectra cruising laminates in the normal yacht range (GLXD for superyachts). Part of the reason is this type of construction became unaffordable compared to membrane sails - which have far superior shape holding to triradial and are now cheaper, or should be.

Yeah that's the one. It was not cheap, but it has performed extremely well for me. They look great, too! Not a minor consideration on something you spend so much money on.

I don't expect to be replacing them any time soon, but when I do, I'll look at the string sails, or maybe there will be a whole new technology by then.