Freedom 28 survey report in.

[alansmith]

I have an accepted offer in on a Freedom 28 sitting on the hard in Chicago area. I blame Steady Hand for fanning the flames on cheap shoal draft boats. Sleepless in San Francisco. Thanks a lot, Pal!

Surveyor looked at the boat today and there are quite a few problems with her. I want to share some pics with .org and ask for some help in trying to understand how deep is this rabbit hole. Take the blue pill, and spend how much money? Or take the red pill and exercise my "out" in the purchase agreement.

Most of the big problems are involving delamination and water in the core. Surveyor said it is common repair and not that difficult. Please examine the pictures of the port side quarter, rudder, and stern. I spent hours today on YouTube watching guys like Boatworks skin the fiberglass, decore, recore, and reglass. I have rebuilt 3 homes in the last 10 years so can get by...but a house ain't a boat.

Your advice please.

[alansmith]

Few more facts that escaped me on the first go around.

1. I am in S.F. Bay area and boat is in Chicago. Plan was to buy a trailer and use this boat as a trailerable solid sea boat for Mexico, San Juans, Bahamas...etc
2. Boat can be seen on yachtworld.com. Search for cat-ketch and you will see her.
3. Accepted offer is 5k plus can store her in Chicago until spring thaw for free.

Here is my conundrum...You can see other Freedom's cat-ketch boats that are cherry and in the low 30 k range. If I buy this boat and it takes all of my free time and 20 k to restore her...wouldn't I just be better off buying the 30k boat and save myself a year or more of life? I ain't getting stronger or younger.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Alan,
Thanks for the report.
IF you do keep the boat, I wish you a lot of fine sailing on it and hope you will post something about that in the Free Standing Masts thread too.

I carefully looked at your photos in this thread.I think it is good you posted them. However, I will defer to the expertise or experience of others who know how tough or not it would be to address those issues you identified.

Good luck on your decision on which pill to take.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Few more facts that escaped me on the first go around.

1. I am in S.F. Bay area and boat is in Chicago. Plan was to buy a trailer and use this boat as a trailerable solid sea boat for Mexico, San Juans, Bahamas...etc
2. Boat can be seen on yachtworld.com. Search for cat-ketch and you will see her.
3. Accepted offer is 5k plus can store her in Chicago until spring thaw for free.

Here is my conundrum...You can see other Freedom's cat-ketch boats that are cherry and in the low 30 k range. If I buy this boat and it takes all of my free time and 20 k to restore her...wouldn't I just be better off buying the 30k boat and save myself a year or more of life? I ain't getting stronger or younger.

There was another Freedom listed in Daytona that was inexpensive. A 33 or 28 I don't recall which now. It may be worthwhile to take a quick look at that before swallowing a pill. I understand your question about which may be cheaper.
Good luck!

PS> Daytona boat was on Craigs list as I recall and recently posted.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Alan,
In case you missed seeing this one, it is what I mentioned up above:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2244168

REMEMBER: all the photos are a MIX of sources and NOT all of the boat listed for sale.

[Jim Cate]

Alan, I've no knowledge specific to Freedoms, but there are some generic principles at play here.

If the survey turned up this many flaws, you can be fairly sure that there are more yet to be discovered. Surveyors,even very good ones, don't find everything, ever! So, that's a strike two IMO. His description of the cure is not in line with what I have observed and heard about indirectly... doing the hull parts is a major job, the rudder perhaps less so, but still a significant amount of work. And if the internal structure is compromised, it really means a whole new rudder to be built.

There are "cherry" sisters on the market for 30 K; this one is 5 K. There is a reason for that! If you go into this purchase thinking that it will cost you 20 k to refit (and I wonder where that number came from), to me it makes no sense whatsoever to buy the cheap one. By the time you transport her to SF and do the work, I sincerely doubt that you will save any money at all, and you will possibly find enough additional issues that the 20 k blows out to a much bigger number. At that point you are faced with a very uncomfortable decision: walk away from your investment, or continue to pour money into the hole in the water (or in your shed).

This sort of question comes up pretty regularly here on CF, and the general gist of the advice is that it is always cheaper and always faster to buy a non-project boat.

In your place, I'd move on, but it is you who must balance out the benefits and the costs.

You might PM Minaret for specific advice about costs of core replacement. He is a treasure trove of expert experience!

Jim

[Island Time O25]

As someone who did go through a couple of project boats - not a complete restoration of course but one good enough for the boats to float and sail , UNLESS all 3 are true: 1) you have not much more funds other then the initial purchase price of a project boat, 2) have the ability and knowledge to do the work yourself and 3) have all the time to do it in reasonably short period of time (weeks and months of straight through DIY not "over the occasional nights and weekends" which will turn into years) you are ALWAYS way ahead of the game by buying a more expensive and less problematic boat.

Doesn't mean that the $20-30K sister boat will be without issues. All boats have issues of various magnitude and expense and used older ones always have them in direct proportion to age. But chances are that a $20-30K boat will be 90-95% complete issue wise while the $5K "deal" will only be 30-40% issue free at best. And to bring her up to that 90-95% issue free condition will require much more $$, significantly much more $$ then to initially buy that higher priced sister ship.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Your instincts on this are definitely worth heeding. Along with Jim’s advice is pretty sound, & here is perhaps an explanation as to more of the why on some of this.

Balsa, being wood, starts rotting when it’s wet for a while. The rot being spores of fungus which, over time turn the wood into a nasty black pate. And since the fungus is alive, it reproduces & spreads. Thus infecting & eating more, & more core over time. Which further breaks down the core to (fiberglass) skin bonds in the hull (or deck), allowing it to spread a lot further than is easily detectable short of removing large areas of the fiberglass skins.

The core in this kind of construction functions just like the web of an I-beam, adding huge amounts of strength & stiffness to the hull or deck. So that when the core itself, or it’s bonds to the skins are degraded, much of the sandwich’s structural properties disappear. And while boats are usually overbuilt, having this kind of thing going on in her core is a ticking you know what. One which commonly, when the skins are opened up to repair it, the damage that's found is often more extensive than was originally thought.

And… repairing it, while commonly done, isn’t the easiest of jobs. Some of this is due to the fact that after removing the outer skin & the bad core (assuming that you get rid of all of the bad [infected] core), you then have to re-laminate new core onto a vertical or inverted curved surface. Followed by doing the same with fiberglass & epoxy overtop of this new core. Doing so in the same awkward position.

And if you’ve ever painted ceilings, you have a tiny idea of how difficult the above will be. Only that in this circumstance it’s on par with gluing syrup laden French Toast to a ceiling, & then doing the same with cooked lasagna noodles (the size of bed sheets) overtop of the syrupy toast.

After which you have the fun task of grinding this stuff until it’s as smooth as a mirror, which involves repeatedly applying coats of 1-3mm of thickened epoxy to the surface, & sanding 80% of it off each time, until the surface of the boat achieves said perfect finish. Only then do you get to paint upside down. Usually at least 5 coats. Since you first have to seal things (with epoxy, yet again), & then you get to put on the multiple coats of Awlgrip or bottom paint. With both kinds of paint costing about $200 per gallon.

So that in doing this kind of repair, it’s easy to quickly exceed the cost of the boat, at $5k. Assuming that the repair turns out to be no bigger than was initially discerned by brail. And this doesn’t include other things that you will find about her later (post purchase) that need fixing. Repairs for which you’ll never get the money back that you invest in them when you sell her. Especially given that there are dozens of similar boats on the market for well under $30k. Ones that are more likely to be half of this figure in terms of cost.

Do a bit of reading on core repair, & deck repair (soggy decks). The tales ain’t pretty, nor inexpensive. Also, you’d be doing yourself a favor to do some self-education on surveying boats & commonly encountered problems. Including how significant they may be, & the costs to fix them. As for example, such core issues are common in decks, sadly.

One place to start on learning about surveys, & boat issues is via boatpoker’s website. He’s a member here on CF who’s also a surveyor, & his site’s pretty good. Marine Surveyor, Port Credit Marine Surveys, Toronto, Ontario

[alansmith]

Guys, thanks for a dose of reality. UnCivil, your descriptions of what actually has to occur from the physics point of view was the proverbial cold glass of water down the back of the shirt trick for me.


I did watch many hours of youtube articles on delamination and repair...replacing cores. Yikes!


Okay. Let me let out a little steam here before I blow a critical part of my neural circuitry. When I started talking with the broker I went into depth about the issues of the boat. He said, she is dirty and needs paint. I asked about the deck soundness since one of the pictures showed cracking around the forward hatch. He said a surveyor would be able to tell one way or another. He said she has good bones and a newer engine (which was a big perk in my estimation...engine was installed in '98 and the boat built in '83) [is this the mind set of boat brokers that a newer engine is akin to "only" being 18 years old as opposed to a 33 year old original engine?]. I asked specifically if there were any osmosis or delamination issues on the boat. He said none that he was aware of but that it would be best to have a surveyor check it out. We talked about many things like stanchions that were wonky, through hulls, electrical, hatches, and on and on babble.


You can clearly see by the photos that there are not minor issues....they are clearly visible to the naked eye. Which frosts my stack a little bit. Okay, more than a little bit. But not truly angry...more akin to being disappointed in another person's level of professional integrity. I know they are there to sell boats. I know they don't make their rice bowl if they don't get offers on boats. But why hide something so obviously wrong as this? That little adventure cost me 800 dollars with surveyor and put the diesel under load versus wet running the engine on the hard.


So, a few lessons were achieved yesterday. How to find an honest boat broker who won't disrespect your time and money? Probably best to see a boat in person and using my skills to see if a boat is even worth getting to the surveyor stage. With obvious problems...clearly visible red flag warnings...why were these photos not given to me? Do they do it to generate business for their yard workers? Is there a "business" relationship with local surveyors to create work? (My surveyor did a great job in alerting me to the issues ...so she did her job). I just don't get it. Why would you tell a prospective client she just needs paint and cleaning when she needs so much more than just elbow grease?

[alansmith]

Let me post a few more pics of this lovely boat. She has such lovely lines and I want to rescue her and bring her back to her former beauty. But my wife told me that she would slap me into next week...he he ...no, she didn't say that but I think she would kill me quickly if I did something this stupid.

So, you can see further crazing around the forward hatch. Surveyor says the deck is sound and that this is just cosmetic. Water in the bilges and dirty oil. There is a probable transmission leak and tranny gets, what was their euphemism, "sticky"?

Engine seems to be in pretty good shape. The last picture is that for some quirky reason....boats can seduce you...just like a crazy girl can seduce you.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Sadly, your experience with the broker is more of the norm than the exception. Case in point, I had one tell me that he didn't know the measurements of the mainsail on a boat he was selling, nor could he get it. Including when he spoke to the owner, in between my 2 calls to him. And this, even though the boat was at their docks right outside of his office!

Of course he also told me that I could add more sail area to the boat by adding a square topped mainsail to her... on a boat with a fixed backstay! Doh!

So, yeah. Brokers ain't the biggest help. My thinking is other than going to see a boat firsthand, try & talk to the owner. Along with learning to sleuth by photo. Meaning to glean as much info as you can by what you see, & don't in the pics. And based on this, run the boat through your own personal features, & inspection checklist. As it helps to have a list of items that you feel need inspecting, as well as looking for on your next boat, & to see how any candidates fair against said list.

Ann T. & Jim Cate posted their own (old, & abridged) checklist perhaps 2 weeks ago. It's a pretty decent guide/template to compare your own against. And IIRC, to some degree it helped them weed out brokers, based on who told them that no boat could satisfy the criteria on it (or not). Not that it set the bar super high. But in some fields mediocrity = a pretty low standard.

[alansmith]

Should I place a phone call to the manager at the yard and make a complaint about "fair representation" ?

[Byrdman]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Should I place a phone call to the manager at the yard and make a complaint about "fair representation" ?

Probably would not do any good. They are probably in cahoots with each other to get that headache out of the yard.

Someone said the other day in another post that a boat over 20 or 30 years isn't worth much of anything and he would only take one if they paid him to take it off his hands. As a current boat shopper, it really made me open my eyes and close my wallet a little.

Good luck!

[Cheechako]

I only had to read your post until "delamination and water in the core" . WALK AWAY fast!
It's just not worth even if it's local and the seller gives it to you, much less 2500 miles away.
In 1992 my simple core repair job became $40k (1992 $). It started as a $15k estimate.

[woodguy]

RUN, don't walk from this boat. It's a money pit and will eat up more of your time than you can imagine, time you could be spending sailing.