Performance Cruisers vs Minivans

[jpbronco]

This weekend, the wife and I took our ASA101 on a smaller variation (Jeanneau 349) of what we thought was our next boat (44DS). By the second day, we both felt the boat sailed like a mini van. Slow and not much performance. A 10 year old could single sail it. Just a yawn at sea. At anchor, I'm sure this boat is a dream.

What are some late model boats we should include in our search that are fun to sail and still be comfortable on a mooring ball in the 40-45' range?

[zemurray]

Sounds like a big boat for just starting out. My wife and I are still new sailors, however when we took our lessons and asked around with the instructor and others, they strongly recommended starting on a 28-32 foot boat, with fin keel. Only moving to a larger boat when we had some time and experience under our belts. We took that advice and have a 28 foot boat that sails great. It’s a bit small but we stay on it for weeks at a time without much issue.

[wingssail]

It is a bit odd that you found the sailing characteristics of the Jeanneau 349 dull. This is a new Jeanneau model from a manufacturer known for good sailing yachts. It has a SA/Disp and Disp/len which should make it a good sailing boat. Perhaps the instructors kept the boat underpowered so as not to intimidate the students. Perhaps the winds during your sessions were insufficient to light up the boat.

Possibly you were expecting some excitement which is more often found in high powered dingys on windy days.

In any case, the 44DS is more of the same, (well, different designer and slightly more performance orientation) and you should resolve your ambivalence before buying that boat.

I suggest (as I often do) that you get out of the class and get aboard some racing boats as crew. Then you'll see what a medium sized performance sailboat is like, when well sailed. Maybe you'll like it, or maybe you'll say, "Why bother, this is boring?"

In any case it is unlikely that you will find any other production vessel which is more exciting, given good winds and good sailors.

[Tillsbury]

Just a thought: is there a charter and owner version of that boat? Many boats come under-performing and cheap (charter companies and sailing schools like these), but there are options for a larger rig, deeper keel, more winches and so on. These are the “owner” versions and are generally much better to sail, albeit not at the advertised base price.

Don’t automatically write off a boat model just because you’ve sailed on one. A 349 set up properly and sailed properly should sail pretty well.

Also, in no way is a 34-footer going to give you any idea of what a 44-foot deck saloon will be like. That’s a far bigger and very different boat.

[Jim Cate]

There are certainly production yachts with designs aimed more at performance than the Jeanneaus . Have a look at Pogos and RMs for a start. Either will blow the doors off any of the mass production French designs.

jim

[Tillsbury]

True, but not remotely in the same price range and some would say not really suitable for novice sailors either.

[AlfaGTV]

X yachts in Denmark is a production builder of performance cruiser yachts.

[valhalla360]

Get a comfortable cruising boat and get a performance sailing dingy for excitement.

[psk125]

No one has mentioned anything that starts with a J/ yet. There are quite a few...

[jpbronco]

In researching after my post, I found this review where they called it "the ideal entry-level small family cruiser." I have to agree.

My concern is that it's not feasible to go out for a 2-3 hours on a dozen boats to determine if this $150-300k purchase is something we want to spend several years on.

I should have mentioned that we both have sailed for years, race on Wed nights and owned a 26' cabin cruiser for a few years. We are taking the certification route for insurance and cover gaps in our knowledge.

[s/v Breakaway]

"My concern is that it's not feasible to go out for a 2-3 hours on a dozen boats to determine if this $150-300k purchase is something we want to spend several years on."

WHAAAAAT?! You would drop that kind of money on a boat WITHOUT checking out a dozen boats?

[MartinR]

These boats are definitely not sluggards. OK, you can get about 5% more performance out of an X-boat but you pay for it with motion comfort. There is no free meal.

The best way to get more performance with the same comfort is to go up in size. But then again, the feeling in bigger boats is still more of a truck. More weight - less lively. My boat, which is very fast, gives no feeling of performance. We sail at 11-12 knots and it feels like driving a train. The only indication of speed is the speed log.

A dinghy or small keel boat is much more rewarding in this respect, but for a cruising boat, I kind of like the no-drama feeling.

[daletournier]

Hmmm, no offense intended but maybe your expectations aren't realistic, the Jeanneau 44 DS mentioned wouldn't be considered a slow cruising boat by most, it's not a performance cat or a Pogo but its certainly not slow.

[jpbronco]

> WHAAAAAT?! You would drop that kind of money on a boat WITHOUT checking out a dozen boats?

@s/v Breakaway - my response could be a different thread on how to buy boat. It's not my impression that I could drop in on a broker, convince him I'm a buyer and take out 3-4 of his boats over the course of a day or two for test drives and then do that again until I've sailed each of the Hanse, Benes, Jeaneaus, DuFours, Catalina, X-, Island Packets, etc on my list. That would be a summer of AWESOME weekends.

Instead, we've been visiting boat shows, brokers, marinas, talking with other cruisers and reading communities like this until we find something that meets our needs as far as size, appointments, layout, etc. to narrow this down to 2-3 boats that we WOULD sail before the purchase.

The top of our list was the J 44DS. Having sailed a 10' shorter variation of that boat for 2 days in 10kts of wind, I've found it a boor to sail. I'm asking the community on what's better or if I'm off my rocker.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hmmm, no offense intended but maybe your expectations aren't realistic, the Jeanneau 44 DS mentioned wouldn't be considered a slow cruising boat by most, it's not a performance cat or a Pogo but its certainly not slow.

Looking at PHRF ratings may help clear some of the foggy discussion about performance. PHRF New England shows a Jeanneau 44 DS with a base rating of 93. A comparably sized J/44 (with a shoal keel, so performance is NOT as good as the standard deep-keel version) has a base rating of 36. This would indicate that on a triangular race course, the Jeannau 44 would be expected to be almost a minute (57 seconds)PER MILE slower than the J/44. Even a J/105, which is about ten feet shorter than the Jeanneau 44 DS, is faster, with a rating of 90. How each of these boats handles and what their accommodations are like is another question. Every boat is different. It would certainly make sense to try out a 44DS before dropping multiple tens of thousands of dollars on one.