Solarwave 64 as a perfect trawler for Caribbean?

[GaryJones]

I think it is a bit too big and expensive for me. But I can imagine it being the perfect boat for on the hook and puttering around the Caribbean.

Does the Solarwave 64 make solar-powered boating a reality? - Motor Boat & Yachting

[StuM]

If you've got a spare 2.2 million + and can put up with only moving at low speed and primarily in daylight, it has a lot going for it.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by StuM

If you've got a spare 2.2 million + and can put up with only moving at low speed and primarily in daylight, it has a lot going for it.

And notice that the performance numbers they gave were not independently tested. I suspect that when you get into real life situations, 15hp is not going to push the boat at 6kts. We had a 34' cat and going into a 30kt headwind, it used all of it's 25hp to maintain about 3kts (less than 1' waves as it was protected waters).

If they really had 2500hrs testing on the engines, they should have been able to tell us about performance under a variety of conditions.

[softdown]

Originally Posted by GaryJones

I think it is a bit too big and expensive for me. But I can imagine it being the perfect boat for on the hook and puttering around the Caribbean.

Does the Solarwave 64 make solar-powered boating a reality? - Motor Boat & Yachting

I am a semi-pro solar guy. I seriously doubt that the energy captured by those panels will do much more than crawl at roughly 2 knots. With 18 full size panels pointed at the sun, 45 degree angle, I can power televisions, fridges, freezers, laptops, light bulbs, and a well. Those are low energy devices compared to a motor propelling a 63' catamaran.

Panels have made marginal improvements in efficiency, they have made spectacular improvements in price reductions. Lead battery technology has not changed much.

I think wind will always be much more effective at propelling watercraft. Someday we will be able to weave solar cells into our sails and really have something there. Right now, flexible panels are not enjoying much of a reputation for longevity.

With cloth sails costing up to $10,000 and lasting a few years, I would suggest patience if waiting for price efficiencies in solar sails.

[GaryJones]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

And notice that the performance numbers they gave were not independently tested. I suspect that when you get into real life situations, 15hp is not going to push the boat at 6kts. We had a 34' cat and going into a 30kt headwind, it used all of it's 25hp to maintain about 3kts (less than 1' waves as it was protected waters).

If they really had 2500hrs testing on the engines, they should have been able to tell us about performance under a variety of conditions.

Addressing your first comment:

I would agree with you that this boat will undoubtedly struggle when heading in to 30knt winds but I doubt that anyone would try for any period of time. I think the boat, as designed, is for being at anchor for 90% of the time and picking the weather window to move 10-100nm to your next destination. Or just hopping around from bay to bay.

With regards your second point, the 2500hrs were on the 46ft test platform, not the 64ft production model. The prototype was built in 2009 and while others may think there's been huge leaps in solar boat tech since then, I don't. There have been some small improvements (plus the batteries which are noticeably better) and I think we are now at the tipping point where it is viable with limitations and cost penalties. It does come with some benefits and while some may think they aren't worth it, others disagree.

[GaryJones]

Originally Posted by softdown

I am a semi-pro solar guy. I seriously doubt that the energy captured by those panels will do much more than crawl at roughly 2 knots. With 18 full size panels pointed at the sun, 45 degree angle, I can power televisions, fridges, freezers, laptops, light bulbs, and a well. Those are low energy devices compared to a motor propelling a 63' catamaran.

Panels have made marginal improvements in efficiency, they have made spectacular improvements in price reductions. Lead battery technology has not changed much.

I think wind will always be much more effective at propelling watercraft. Someday we will be able to weave solar cells into our sails and really have something there. Right now, flexible panels are not enjoying much of a reputation for longevity.

With cloth sails costing up to $10,000 and lasting a few years, I would suggest patience if waiting for price efficiencies in solar sails.

The boat can only do 2knts? I honestly don't understand the strong idiotic statements on both sides of the 'solar' argument.

Some solar proponents harp on about 15kw being equivalent to 45kw diesels when anyone who understands mechanics (or even basic maths) knows this is rubbish. There are points on the power curve where electric motors have pluses to diesels but for continual running when travelling distances, there's very little difference.

The other side talk about how ineffective solar is and that they seriously doubt the boat will move at anything above 2knts. I have run the numbers and they seem slightly high (but only by about 0.5 knots) and they level out at the 70Kw for 10knots. This discrepancy might be due to the prop specialisation, I don't know but it definitely seems reasonable. Obviously this is based on calm conditions.

If I am totally honest, I think the boat is too heavy to be 'ideal'. There's too much luxury which has been introduced at the expense of weight and as anyone who understands displacement speeds will understand, the key to speeds and efficiency is the length to displacement ratio. If they'd hit their designed 18,000 kg, they'd have been much better off in my mind.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by GaryJones

Addressing your first comment:

I would agree with you that this boat will undoubtedly struggle when heading in to 30knt winds but I doubt that anyone would try for any period of time. I think the boat, as designed, is for being at anchor for 90% of the time and picking the weather window to move 10-100nm to your next destination. Or just hopping around from bay to bay.

So someone is going to buy a $2mil boat that's can't go up the ICW on a windy day? Given the much larger size of this boat, I'm betting it struggles with a 15kt headwind and sees noticeable speed reduction in 8-10kt winds.

If you read the article, they claim essentially unlimited range undermining the idea that this is a fair weather boat that will never be out in bad weather.

With regards your second point, the 2500hrs were on the 46ft test platform, not the 64ft production model. The prototype was built in 2009 and while others may think there's been huge leaps in solar boat tech since then, I don't. There have been some small improvements (plus the batteries which are noticeably better) and I think we are now at the tipping point where it is viable with limitations and cost penalties. It does come with some benefits and while some may think they aren't worth it, others disagree.

Then give us details on the test boat performance in various conditions. That's 9yrs and a lot of hours under power to obtain a reasonable data sample to show us how performance changes in different conditions. It also suggests the performance info they provided is nothing but marketing.

Other than to improve your eco "street cred", I don't see where this is the perfect anything. For less than half the price, you can get a slow speed trawler cat with a pair of 20hp diesels (more than double what they claim will give you 6kt cruise speed) and enough solar to run the house loads. You would be hard pressed to burn 10% of the savings on on fuel in 20yrs. If you stay at the 6kt cruise speed, you are probably looking at well under 5%. When you consider batteries have a lifespan, there is probably no cost savings on fuel.

This is an idea that people have been trying for 20+ years (in it's modern incarnation) and no one ever has come forward with independent testing to confirm it can be done without major drawbacks.

[ranchero76]

I've posted this before, but some people seem to refuse believe their eyes. For the rest - "and yet it moves". Much faster than 2 knots. It's definitely not for cheap cruisers as it will never "pay for itself". But for these who has 2M for toy - this is very nice toy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_hwM-RSfiA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e2WxVvBU8o

[GaryJones]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Other than to improve your eco "street cred", I don't see where this is the perfect anything. For less than half the price, you can get a slow speed trawler cat with a pair of 20hp diesels (more than double what they claim will give you 6kt cruise speed) and enough solar to run the house loads. You would be hard pressed to burn 10% of the savings on on fuel in 20yrs. If you stay at the 6kt cruise speed, you are probably looking at well under 5%. When you consider batteries have a lifespan, there is probably no cost savings on fuel.

This is an idea that people have been trying for 20+ years (in it's modern incarnation) and no one ever has come forward with independent testing to confirm it can be done without major drawbacks.

Two things:
Point me to a manufacturer that has published full data on one of its test platforms? (That information is part of their R&D & frankly from listening to everyone on here they'd just call them liars anyway.)
Show me a new luxury 64 ft power catamaran for half the price of this one?

To match this catamaran your trawler cat would need similar solar and 45hp diesels (to have the same 10knt top speed with 70kw total power). It would then have a similar speed range with the added benefit of longer full power. It would undoubtedly be cheaper, but for a similarly spec'd boat I doubt the saving would be more than 10%.

You would then have a valid argument for why pick the electric version and I'd also agree with you that 'saving money on fuel' is not a valid choice.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

I've posted this before, but some people seem to refuse believe their eyes. For the rest - "and yet it moves". Much faster than 2 knots. It's definitely not for cheap cruisers as it will never "pay for itself". But for these who has 2M for toy - this is very nice toy.

I watched the videos and it provided no information about power consumption at speed or under specific conditions. They showed short clips of the boa with no indication of what speed it was traveling or how much power it was consuming.

Odd that it's almost June 2017 and the first video was from June 2016 and they haven't been able to develop any performance data to share. Don't you think if it was as good as claimed, they would be providing the data to shut down those who question their marketing?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by GaryJones

Two things:
Point me to a manufacturer that has published full data on one of its test platforms? (That information is part of their R&D & frankly from listening to everyone on here they'd just call them liars anyway.)
Show me a new luxury 64 ft power catamaran for half the price of this one?

Lots of companies provide test platform data. Particularly when implementing new technology. Example: Ford came out with their V6 ecoboost engines and to address concerns, they put it up against the competitions V8 engines in a host of tests and then documented the results. They also brought in the car magazines to provide an independent review.

Do you seriously think the boat magazines wouldn't jump at the chance to do a detailed performance based article?

To match this catamaran your trawler cat would need similar solar and 45hp diesels (to have the same 10knt top speed with 70kw total power). It would then have a similar speed range with the added benefit of longer full power. It would undoubtedly be cheaper, but for a similarly spec'd boat I doubt the saving would be more than 10%.

The big difference is the 45hp diesels would provide reliable cruising at 6kts (or faster). No evidence has been presented that the solar could keep the boat at 6kts for extended periods.

You would then have a valid argument for why pick the electric version and I'd also agree with you that 'saving money on fuel' is not a valid choice.

Also, looking at the boat, it appears they cut back the accommodations compared to similar size cats, so it becomes a question of what is equivalent. Solarwave clearly wants us to compare it to 64' cats but that's a bit misleading.

I'm not sure what the goal is. Their videos seem to make noise and fuel savings the big advantages but a you say, fuel savings will never cover the costs and while I don't have experience on big 60'+ cats on my little cats, just chugging along, wind and wave noise is the predominant sounds. I have to pay attention to pick out the sound of the motors.

[John Holbrook]

From the FAQ page on the solarwave website. "There are many hybrid-boats on the market, but what is their range? 10 or 20 miles. A Solarwave can go up to 100 miles a day - permantently for weeks! And solely electrically more than 10 knots. With unlimited range - worldwide. On top of that she poweres all household appliances."

Up to 100 miles per day... 4mph... 30 day Transat if the sun is shining. I think diesel or sails would be much cheaper than the likely divorce��

[GaryJones]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

From the FAQ page on the solarwave website. "There are many hybrid-boats on the market, but what is their range? 10 or 20 miles. A Solarwave can go up to 100 miles a day - permantently for weeks! And solely electrically more than 10 knots. With unlimited range - worldwide. On top of that she poweres all household appliances."

Up to 100 miles per day... 4mph... 30 day Transat if the sun is shining. I think diesel or sails would be much cheaper than the likely divorce��

What is an acceptable miles per day?
A number of yachts took longer than 25days during the last ARC with a good tail wind and favourable currents. Admittedly none of them were 2mil+ boats...
If the idea of spending a month on that yacht isn't appealing to your wife, I bet you could find a replacement that would.

[GaryJones]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Also, looking at the boat, it appears they cut back the accommodations compared to similar size cats, so it becomes a question of what is equivalent. Solarwave clearly wants us to compare it to 64' cats but that's a bit misleading.

I'm not sure what the goal is. Their videos seem to make noise and fuel savings the big advantages but a you say, fuel savings will never cover the costs and while I don't have experience on big 60'+ cats on my little cats, just chugging along, wind and wave noise is the predominant sounds. I have to pay attention to pick out the sound of the motors.

I honestly never thought about the size of the interior space. It seemed large enough for me but I am not used to shopping in the super-luxury end. Looking at the Sunreef Power 60, I am seeing lots of space on each just different emphasis.

Like I said before, this isn't the boat for me anyway, but I do think it might be a valid boat for someone.

I also think you can't discount the appeal of not using fuels of any kind, no diesel, no petrol, no propane. The idea that you could live on the hook for months at a time with only the occasional foray to land for fresh food (and of course, alcohol). That has a romantic appeal that tugs at the heart of some (perhaps most sailors in fact), even if perhaps it isn't totally logical. Most sailors accept a level of comfort based on what they have available in terms of power. Most want more solar so they don't have to run the genset as often. Most wives want more hot water and more showers. This boat ticks all those boxes with a holistic approach which should probably be the thrust of their marketing without all the fuel saving crap.

[John Holbrook]

Canarys to St Martin on a circa 50' catamaran with main and Genoa only say 18 days.

Spending a month crossing the Atlantic is not the same as spending a month cruising the Carribean. Try it and you will see why. No need to replace my wife and no need for my wife to replace me, I won't be buying a solarwave😎

Originally Posted by GaryJones

What is an acceptable miles per day?
A number of yachts took longer than 25days during the last ARC with a good tail wind and favourable currents. Admittedly none of them were 2mil+ boats...
If the idea of spending a month on that yacht isn't appealing to your wife, I bet you could find a replacement that would.