Lithium in Croatia

[Blackduck]

The house bank on my (new to me) Lagoon 450 has died (I fear a reverse polarity shore power may have fried them but that is amateur speculation) They now smell like Hydrogen Sulphide and drop volts like an anvil once the charger is turned off even with nothing turned on (drawing 2A according to the meter - oh and the Mastervolt panel would happily suggest 5days remaining even as the alarm sounded!) Anyway... I was always intending too upgrade to Lithium eventually. So now eventually has come quickly. The thing is I can't seem to find Lithium Batteries (like Relion or such ) in Europe never mind Croatia. So the question is: has anyone fitted Lithium batteries to their boat in A) Croatia or B) near-there-to? I was originally going to go the Winston route and build the system but its dark at night and I'd like a fridge to work without running the generator all the time so I figure I should just bite the bullet and go drop in - or am I overestimating the complexity of DIY
Cheers

[44'cruisingcat]

DIY isn't overly difficult.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Blackduck

The house bank on my (new to me) Lagoon 450 has died (I fear a reverse polarity shore power may have fried them but that is amateur speculation) They now smell like Hydrogen Sulphide and drop volts like an anvil once the charger is turned off even with nothing turned on (drawing 2A according to the meter - oh and the Mastervolt panel would happily suggest 5days remaining even as the alarm sounded!) Anyway... I was always intending too upgrade to Lithium eventually. So now eventually has come quickly. The thing is I can't seem to find Lithium Batteries (like Relion or such ) in Europe never mind Croatia. So the question is: has anyone fitted Lithium batteries to their boat in A) Croatia or B) near-there-to? I was originally going to go the Winston route and build the system but its dark at night and I'd like a fridge to work without running the generator all the time so I figure I should just bite the bullet and go drop in - or am I overestimating the complexity of DIY
Cheers

I am surprised that you couldn't find any in Croatia. Here in Turkey they are readily available by Vectron and Mastervolt. You need to buy and install BMS (battery management system) as well.
Out of 100 + boat that we dealth with so far, I have only seen Lithium batteries on a Gunboat.
The biggest advantage is the durability and weight saving. If you have the largest dingy and O/B possible, all the toys and so on, saving 40-60 kg wouldn't make too much sense IMO..

Cheers

Yeloya

[44'cruisingcat]

Weight savings are greater than 40 - 60kg!

They also take up far less space. Well there are numerous advantages.

Advice from a guy who works with LIFePO4 for a living, was that a BMS isn't essential for a 12 volt system, if you have a programmable charge controller and you're prepared to check cell balance periodically.

Over discharge protection can be accomplished with a programmable VSR.

[The Todd]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Weight savings are greater than 40 - 60kg!

They also take up far less space. Well there are numerous advantages.

Advice from a guy who works with LIFePO4 for a living, was that a BMS isn't essential for a 12 volt system, if you have a programmable charge controller and you're prepared to check cell balance periodically.

Over discharge protection can be accomplished with a programmable VSR.

You will absolutely need a bms to not put one in will be throwing away money as you will half your efective battery life. Lithium bats are great but not the be all end all, their main advantage as mentioned is weight and size secodary advantages are things such as faster charging, low maintenance and a tollarance of both high and low draw uses. However they respond poorly to not being cycled regually and not beeing charged/ drawn on correctly. Another consideration is whilst rare they can vent and if one does the are super toxic. We had one vent at work and 6 people needed a trip to hospital 3 were effected for days and this was a bat that weighs less than half a kg a 10amp hour, so they must be very well ventilated and temp controled. Unless you are building a racer i would think it would hard to justify the price.

[44'cruisingcat]

You seem to be confusing the types of lithium batteries.

And the weight saving, while significant is probably one of the more minor benefits.

They should have a cycle life far greater than lead acid. My lithiums cost about 150% of what a replacement lead bank would have cost. If they last 9 years it's a break even on cost. Any longer and they actually start to be cheaper than lead. As well as being lighter, more compact, more efficient, etc...

[downunder]

Originally Posted by The Todd

You will absolutely need a bms to not put one in will be throwing away money as you will half your efective battery life. Lithium bats are great but not the be all end all, their main advantage as mentioned is weight and size secodary advantages are things such as faster charging, low maintenance and a tollarance of both high and low draw uses. However they respond poorly to not being cycled regually and not beeing charged/ drawn on correctly. Another consideration is whilst rare they can vent and if one does the are super toxic. We had one vent at work and 6 people needed a trip to hospital 3 were effected for days and this was a bat that weighs less than half a kg a 10amp hour, so they must be very well ventilated and temp controled. Unless you are building a racer i would think it would hard to justify the price.

I doubt you are talking about LiFeO4 batteries. There are other Lithium chemistries that have issues.

[The Todd]

Not specifically LiFe04 however there is always the risk across the range dont get me wrong almost all Lithium batteries are fantastic they will beat almost anything else readly avalible when correctly used with a BMS. But not using one is a big risk to the longevity of the bank.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You seem to be confusing the types of lithium batteries.

And the weight saving, while significant is probably one of the more minor benefits.

They should have a cycle life far greater than lead acid. My lithiums cost about 150% of what a replacement lead bank would have cost. If they last 9 years it's a break even on cost. Any longer and they actually start to be cheaper than lead. As well as being lighter, more compact, more efficient, etc...

[44'cruisingcat]

Well..... from what I've seen, a BMS can do as much harm as good.

In a low voltage event, it not only disconnects the loads, but also charging sources, so there's no way for them to recover. However the BMS itself continues to draw current. On a friends boat this lead eventually to an extreme low voltage event, with bulging batteries, polarity reverses etc.

Luckily the batteries could be saved.

So I'm quite happy to do without a BMS, thanks.

[double u]

the people I work for can expedite Zenith to Croatia tomorrow, afaik quite a few are in stock
I'll be getting back 2 u 2 morrow

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Well..... from what I've seen, a BMS can do as much harm as good.

In a low voltage event, it not only disconnects the loads, but also charging sources, so there's no way for them to recover. However the BMS itself continues to draw current. On a friends boat this lead eventually to an extreme low voltage event, with bulging batteries, polarity reverses etc.

Luckily the batteries could be saved.

So I'm quite happy to do without a BMS, thanks.

You are describing an inadequate, low-quality BMS. A good BMS will eventually shut itself off from discharging from either the load or charge bus if the voltage keeps going down. The BMS should eventually shut even itself off, to avoid over-discharging the batteries.

We haven't sold a BMS that can't cut all loads (from either load or charge side) to zero or nearly zero, since 2011.

[44'cruisingcat]

Yes, this BMS was bought and installed before 2011.