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Old 09-01-2018, 02:40   #46
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Originally Posted by rom View Post
AFAIK there has always been one light displacement (EEC) weight for the L440 and that is 12.15t. These days L450F/S gets 15.5, 16.9 and 14.9.... whichever you pick makes a little more than 2 tons !
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@Valiente: L440 & L450 are 2 very different boats !

...
Thanks to both. I always regarded the L450 as kind of facelift to L440. Seems i was wrong.

I will dig on the subject as, even if I salivate at L52, would love to own a L50 (pending on an unbiased report on its sail performance ), I guess proper size for a liveaboard cruising couple is L440/450. (Dufour 48?)
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:39   #47
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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If people really bought into the speed sells, manufacturers would be flocking to put out speed demons but in reality, it's a niche market with a few manufacturers feeding stories about how you won't be happy unless we strip out the amenities and make the boat fast.
I don't know whether you simply haven't bothered to read or you are wilfully misconstruing.

So - slowly and clearly

IT IS NOT ABOUT SPEED, its about sailing in light winds when others are motoring.
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:43   #48
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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The lighter, performance cats are also more prone to flipping and so, arguably, are less safe.
Yeah NAH. Outside of racing i dont think there is a huge variance - eg I know of a number of lagoons that have flipped, doesnt make them unsafe.

you may have some stats I am not aware of to support your assertions? I have sailed lots and lots and lots of cats of various types brands and models, including lagoon, none of them have flipped, maybe I have been lucky hey.
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:45   #49
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
i give you 10 kn and performance cat where you can use as much sail as physically possible and have daggerboards as long as you want.

And will put you in confused seas say 1m which is nice average around east coast australia.

And you will motor or look like struggling cat doing 2 knots and ripping sails apart and make monohullers laugh
Let me pick the boat and I will cheerfully bet my house on the fact that what you say is rubbish.

Geez guys, get a grip, no one is suggesting that your boats are rubbish, dont suggest those of us that like sailing boats, pick rubbish boats. All we said was that the dufor is an obese boat, it wont sail very well.

Thus They will probably sell millions.
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Old 09-01-2018, 04:45   #50
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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I don't know whether you simply haven't bothered to read or you are wilfully misconstruing.

So - slowly and clearly

IT IS NOT ABOUT SPEED, its about sailing in light winds when others are motoring.
Nope, fully aware of the philosophical waxing on about the zen of ghosting along at 2kts.

Go down to the ICW or other area frequented by long distance cruisers and you will see weekend racers ghosting around at 2kts while racing and the cruisers just crank up the motor to keep moving. You are making the assumption that cruisers are horrified at the idea of cranking up the motor and that's just not born out by what really happens (again outside a small subset of former racers out to prove themselves).
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Old 09-01-2018, 05:11   #51
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Nope, fully aware of the philosophical waxing on about the zen of ghosting along at 2kts.

Go down to the ICW or other area frequented by long distance cruisers and you will see weekend racers ghosting around at 2kts while racing and the cruisers just crank up the motor to keep moving. You are making the assumption that cruisers are horrified at the idea of cranking up the motor and that's just not born out by what really happens (again outside a small subset of former racers out to prove themselves).
Or maybe they just enjoy sailing and would rather not turn the engines on and burn fuel ...
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Old 09-01-2018, 05:15   #52
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Or maybe they just enjoy sailing and would rather not turn the engines on and burn fuel ...
Regardless of why, they are a tiny subset of the cruising market or we would see the bulk of the market made up of spartan speed demon boats that go great in light air...but if you go down to the local boat show, that's not what you find.
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Old 09-01-2018, 06:50   #53
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Regardless of why, they are a tiny subset of the cruising market or we would see the bulk of the market made up of spartan speed demon boats that go great in light air...but if you go down to the local boat show, that's not what you find.
Sure, I don't think anyone was saying that wasn't the case. Horses for courses.
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Old 09-01-2018, 14:30   #54
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Yeah NAH. Outside of racing i dont think there is a huge variance - eg I know of a number of lagoons that have flipped, doesnt make them unsafe.

you may have some stats I am not aware of to support your assertions? I have sailed lots and lots and lots of cats of various types brands and models, including lagoon, none of them have flipped, maybe I have been lucky hey.
There are many, many influences on safety. In my opinion the greatest single attribute is the seamanship of the crew.

I don't have any hard facts regarding cats flipping. I'm sure Seaslug can assist.☺ Wish I had the time to correlate flippings with number of vessels and miles travellled. Anecdotally, there seems to be a number of brands/models that seem to be "over represented" in the flipping stakes. These tend to be "performance " cats. Maybe they are just sailed less prudently?

There's always good ol physics. It's a fact that, all other aspects ( design, weight distribution,,etc) being equal, a heavier catamaran will be more stable, ie. resistant to flipping.
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Old 09-01-2018, 21:25   #55
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Sure, I don't think anyone was saying that wasn't the case. Horses for courses.
Sure seemed like certain people were suggesting it was a bad design because it wasn't designed for the go fast crowd.

Why else bring up the size and weight? Do you seriously think it is going to sink because they made it too heavy?
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Old 09-01-2018, 22:31   #56
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Sure seemed like certain people were suggesting it was a bad design because it wasn't designed for the go fast crowd.

Why else bring up the size and weight? Do you seriously think it is going to sink because they made it too heavy?
They made the point that it was heavy and wasn't a performance boat/light air sailor. It's a perfectly valid comment, especially in the context of manufacturers being 'optimistic' about claimed weights and predicted performance.

It helps position the boat in the comfort V performance spectrum for those that are interested. It seems some are sensitive about that but that's not the problem of those pointing out the boat's characteristics.
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Old 09-01-2018, 23:50   #57
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post

There's always good ol physics. It's a fact that, all other aspects ( design, weight distribution,,etc) being equal, a heavier catamaran will be more stable, ie. resistant to flipping.
Time to fill those mini keels with lead then
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Old 09-01-2018, 23:59   #58
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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They made the point that it was heavy and wasn't a performance boat/light air sailor. It's a perfectly valid comment, especially in the context of manufacturers being 'optimistic' about claimed weights and predicted performance.

It helps position the boat in the comfort V performance spectrum for those that are interested. It seems some are sensitive about that but that's not the problem of those pointing out the boat's characteristics.
"15 ton for 48 foot is very nearly obese"

That's the original comment I was referring to. It sure sounds more like an attack rather than simple pointing out that it's more comfort focused.

If you take the time to read the thread, you will find most of the pro-racing cat comments follow a similar pattern.
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Old 10-01-2018, 00:06   #59
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Re: Dufour catamaran

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
"15 ton for 48 foot is very nearly obese"

That's the original comment I was referring to. It sure sounds more like an attack rather than simple pointing out that it's more comfort focused.

If you take the time to read the thread, you will find most of the pro-racing cat comments follow a similar pattern.
Well, it's a true statement. Possibly had some more meaning to it, as you say.I have read the thread, thank you for your advice. I could apply your pattern of behaviour rationale to comments arguing it's about racers egos when it has been explained that it's not...

In any case, people who want a spacious and luxurious boat with a big payload are making just as valid a decision as those who want a lightweight, performance cruising cat. Each to their own and all that.
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:43   #60
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Re: Dufour catamaran

And yes, I seriously think they will sink if they are too heavy. That's just simple physics. Some condomarans have sunk when flooded.


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