Buying a STEEL boat WITHOUT survey

[ReefRaff]

This should interest anyone who has ever had anything to do with steel boats... I recently met a guy who has gone under contract to purchase a 50-foot 30-something year old steel sailing boat without even an in-water surveyor inspection let alone a haul-out. The only contract 'condition' is a sea trial. Oh, and by the way the deck is teak(!) over steel and the external trim all over the boat is also teak.. A few things are a worry here..
1. I know for sure that in addition to my own very detailed personal inspection I would want at the very least an in-water AND slipped inspection by a qualified surveyor, preferably one from a commercial boating background, AND an ultrasonic test of the hull since it's 30-plus years old,
2. a sea trial is done merely to check that the systems - engine, electronics, windlass, winches etc - work properly and is a standard part of any boat purchase. Going to contract 'subject to' a satisfactory sea trial AND WITHOUT A HAUL-OUT is basically the same as buying the boat blind.
3. The boat has teak decks and the buyer has conceded that 'rust stains' and bubbling is visible at the edge of the teak decking where it meets the toe rail and cockpit combing, and even around the winches.
4. Visible signs of rust at the toe rail and the sides of the hull above the waterline... along with paintwork of a different hue to the original...,
By the way he's been told that the slipway is unavailable and can't be accessed for 3 months or something... is that why no haul-out...?
Has this guy completely fallen in love with a mirage, or does he have some way of being certain that the boat's just fine and there is no rust in the deck, superstructure or hull that I in my ignorance have not heard about? Or is he just plain bonkers?
ReefRaff

[Captsteve53]

Absolutely "BONKERS" but different strokes for different blokes!!!!

Cheers Steve(MIIMS Surveyor-Lloyd's Maritime)

[boden36]

Some people are just gamblers. Hope he picked a winner!

Regards,
Richard.

[Badsanta]

Even if it's free, it will cost a fortune. a survey won't show everything. If you don't have the skill, time and cash look elsewhere. I have been there before. Wasted years and tons of money.

[Captsteve53]

Here's a current picture of a 20 year old Steel Yacht that was purchased 6 months ago with out a Survey, since then in my capacity as a Surveyor and Steel Boat builder have been helping with re plating 75% of the bottom, originally built in Australia out of 8 and 6 mm steel plate, not only was the bottom rotten but numerous lower frames are being replaced as well,

Bought with NO survey or out of water inspections

Cheers Steve

[Captsteve53]

And one more if not convinced why to do an out of water Survey-Even a diving survey using a under water camera, ANYTHING!!

Cheers Steve

[ReefRaff]

Woah CapnSteve those pictures certainly tell a story and only 20 years old!

The thing that had me really scratching my head was why the buyer feels he needs to enter into a contract in such a way, that is, a survey may not reveal all (as skipper he needs to back himself of course) but it will at the very least fill in the gaps in his own knowledge, and it doesn't cost much in the scheme of things. My point in starting this thread was not just to air my thoughts on why a steel boat (HULL!) needs to be surveyed IMHO, but why someone would buy a boat in this illogical way - is it to do with the pressure involved in the whole buying process or is it the emotion of buying your dreamboat? Or maybe it's a just case of money being no option (but what about the safetyu aspect?). Either way, pressure, emotion, money, whatever, something about boats and buying boats makes people do very strange things!
BTW, the boat has apparently been lying idle in tropical seas for over two years...

[wandering rober]

I would want a survey , but I can understand feeling that one was not necessary . Maybe he is familiar with the boat or the price is RIGHT .
I once bought a 49 foot ketch , fiberglass, that had been sitting for seven years .Without a survey , but the price was 105 K less than market price . Also a 38 foot steel ketch with new Whaler and outboard for 12 K , no survey .
From the information that the OP supplied we do not know the circumstances or the deal !

[Captsteve53]

Reef Raff,

This yacht was also sitting for several years (in the tropics), there was ONLY one tiny pin hole leak!-well thats how it started!!,

I have seen numerous people get the "BUG"and all reason goes out the window, as was the case with the above photos, I was asked by a friend to look at the vessel (not as a commercial Marine Surveyor) but "quick look only", My suggestion was to haul out immediately and (lets have look out of the water)(as a friend, ie: no charge!) NOPE: deal was done the next day and to top it off the friend was a experienced dealer of boats?),

Couldn't see the forest for the tree's syndrome ("as the price was right")- not ending up that way! and now cutting corners in the repair (of which I have walked from!)- Boat now on the market! SIGH!

Cheers Steve

[gjordan]

Be wary of surveyors that want to do ultrasonic testing. If the surveyor is not very familiar with steel boats he will most likely do more harm than good. Unless things have changed since I was involved in steel boats, you have to grind down to clean metal to do a test, and that test spot is just for the tiny area that the sensor touches. A less experienced surveyor may start randomly testing all over the hull and ruin a perfectly good paint system. A surveyor familiar with steel construction will spend a lot of time looking over the inside of the boat to decide just where testing is likely to be needed. A buyer that insists on testing in some set pattern , thinking he will get an indication of condition, is just wasting money and causing paint problems later on. A test spot is just a spot. You could have 50% wastage a few inches away and not have any outside indication. Ultrasonic testers are a great tool in the hands of a knowledgeable surveyor, but just an expensive toy if the person doesnt really know steel boats. Just my opinion. _____Grant.

[lesterbutch]

Originally Posted by ReefRaff

This should interest anyone who has ever had anything to do with steel boats... I recently met a guy who has gone under contract to purchase a 50-foot 30-something year old steel sailing boat without even an in-water surveyor inspection let alone a haul-out. The only contract 'condition' is a sea trial. Oh, and by the way the deck is teak(!) over steel and the external trim all over the boat is also teak.. A few things are a worry here..
1. I know for sure that in addition to my own very detailed personal inspection I would want at the very least an in-water AND slipped inspection by a qualified surveyor, preferably one from a commercial boating background, AND an ultrasonic test of the hull since it's 30-plus years old,
2. a sea trial is done merely to check that the systems - engine, electronics, windlass, winches etc - work properly and is a standard part of any boat purchase. Going to contract 'subject to' a satisfactory sea trial AND WITHOUT A HAUL-OUT is basically the same as buying the boat blind.
3. The boat has teak decks and the buyer has conceded that 'rust stains' and bubbling is visible at the edge of the teak decking where it meets the toe rail and cockpit combing, and even around the winches.
4. Visible signs of rust at the toe rail and the sides of the hull above the waterline... along with paintwork of a different hue to the original...,
By the way he's been told that the slipway is unavailable and can't be accessed for 3 months or something... is that why no haul-out...?
Has this guy completely fallen in love with a mirage, or does he have some way of being certain that the boat's just fine and there is no rust in the deck, superstructure or hull that I in my ignorance have not heard about? Or is he just plain bonkers?
ReefRaff

Yeh, do that! I did it once, a 25 foot steel craft, it sank at the mooring less than a month later!

[straightman21]

One born every minute but why can't I find these folk when I have something to sell?

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by ReefRaff

This should interest anyone who has ever had anything to do with steel boats... I recently met a guy who has gone under contract to purchase a 50-foot 30-something year old steel sailing boat without even an in-water surveyor inspection let alone a haul-out. The only contract 'condition' is a sea trial. Oh, and by the way the deck is teak(!) over steel and the external trim all over the boat is also teak.. A few things are a worry here..
1. I know for sure that in addition to my own very detailed personal inspection I would want at the very least an in-water AND slipped inspection by a qualified surveyor, preferably one from a commercial boating background, AND an ultrasonic test of the hull since it's 30-plus years old,
2. a sea trial is done merely to check that the systems - engine, electronics, windlass, winches etc - work properly and is a standard part of any boat purchase. Going to contract 'subject to' a satisfactory sea trial AND WITHOUT A HAUL-OUT is basically the same as buying the boat blind.
3. The boat has teak decks and the buyer has conceded that 'rust stains' and bubbling is visible at the edge of the teak decking where it meets the toe rail and cockpit combing, and even around the winches.
4. Visible signs of rust at the toe rail and the sides of the hull above the waterline... along with paintwork of a different hue to the original...,
By the way he's been told that the slipway is unavailable and can't be accessed for 3 months or something... is that why no haul-out...?
Has this guy completely fallen in love with a mirage, or does he have some way of being certain that the boat's just fine and there is no rust in the deck, superstructure or hull that I in my ignorance have not heard about? Or is he just plain bonkers?
ReefRaff

Yes, he's got stars in his eyes and holes in his wallet. I own a steel boat turning 30 next year and despite having recent surveys, we had our own done in 2006 when we bought her. No boat is perfect, but steel can be imperfect in ways that are harder or at least more difficult to spot. Also, teak decks are a bad idea on anything but a teak boat in my view, and doubly so on steel underdecks.

Lastly, steel and ferro-concrete are rarely well-built as home-builds as so many are. This plays in to the bad rep they have. Proper surface prep and maintenance is critical. It's not often done.

Tell him to run away. As a friend.

[Captsteve53]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Be wary of surveyors that want to do ultrasonic testing. If the surveyor is not very familiar with steel boats he will most likely do more harm than good. Unless things have changed since I was involved in steel boats, you have to grind down to clean metal to do a test, and that test spot is just for the tiny area that the sensor touches. A less experienced surveyor may start randomly testing all over the hull and ruin a perfectly good paint system. A surveyor familiar with steel construction will spend a lot of time looking over the inside of the boat to decide just where testing is likely to be needed. A buyer that insists on testing in some set pattern , thinking he will get an indication of condition, is just wasting money and causing paint problems later on. A test spot is just a spot. You could have 50% wastage a few inches away and not have any outside indication. Ultrasonic testers are a great tool in the hands of a knowledgeable surveyor, but just an expensive toy if the person doesnt really know steel boats. Just my opinion. _____Grant.

Grant,

While i agree with much of your above post (especially re experience levels)
even most entry Surveyors will know the basics re patterns and likely area's to test, the technology you refer to is almost a decade old at least, these days Hull thickness testers such as SIGMA AND MANY OTHERS ARE REALLY NON-DESTRUCTIVE
and can be used over paint easily and accurately even in the water (yes true!).
So as for doing "more harm than good"is some miss leading as in my last several hull ultra sounds I have identified some serious issues were previous owners had filled and faired large wasted area's (but on the surface and from the inside looked perfect, With out the Ultra sound the new owner would have been caught out not to mention lives at risk (Waste of time???) Even pipes and piping is now common to test/check

You do know these days we can check masts /rigging/super structures with
remote controlled aircraft with Laser Ultra Sound/thermal imaging equipment
(Yes True again).

Even on a Super tanker to coastal freighters we can test every hatch seal on the vessel with the use of Ultra-Sonics easily and quickly

Cheers Steve (MIIMS-Lloyd's Maritime)

[Capn Jimbo]

"2. a sea trial is done merely to check that the systems - engine, electronics, windlass, winches etc - work properly and is a standard part of any boat purchase. Going to contract 'subject to' a satisfactory sea trial AND WITHOUT A HAUL-OUT is basically the same as buying the boat blind."

First, I would amend the subject to "Buying ANY boat of significant price without...".

Second, buying subject to (insert, survey, sea trial or both) - subject to anything - completely favors the buyer. The YBBA (and most state broker associations) standard purchase contract allow the prospective buyer to reject the boat at his/her complete discretion and personal opinion, and for any reason, or no reason whatsoever after the survey OR trial.

A truly blind sale wherein the offer IS accepted without any contingencies or other escape clauses (eg destruction of the boat by an act of God, etc.). It would be final.

OTOH a sale subject to Survey and/or Sea Trials can always be rejected by the buyer alone and always offer a way out.