New England Wintering. Do I want to?

[Jerryg]

I am in the baby steps of full time liveaboard. My dilemma at this point is the cold winters.
I will either be in Portland or S.Portland Maine. I ask myself do I liveaboard year round or just during the warmer months? I could get a small appartment during the winter. I would love to sit down with someone who has or is fairing the harsh winters aboard. I have so many question. I'll by dinner.
Or better yet, invite me aboard for dinner. I can bring Deer, Moose whatever you like. I would rather stay on board year round if I can see that it is possible for my lifestyle.
My plan is to get something at least 35ft and under 40ft. I need to be able to single hand.
I have lots of experience surviving with little. I used to teach survival classes and do a lot of backpacking, and camping. So I can ruff it but I do want to be cozy in my boat home.
So any advice you all have would be great. If anyone is at Demilos or South Port Marine I would really like to talk to you.

Now I am off to do some more research.

Jerry

[TJ D]

Well, we've already left Maine, so we can't have dinner, but perhaps I can offer a little bit of insight. I've been living aboard for over 20 years, albeit mostly in milder climates. We did 5 or 6 winters in Seattle, and were in Rhode Island last winter.

However, we did haul the boat and get out of there from about 12-15 until 3-15. That was a good call considering last winter! We were 50/50 on staying on board throughout.


There are a couple of liveaboards at DeMillos, by the way. You could probably take a walk down there and find one who would be happy to talk to you. I remember talking to a friendly guy on a Hans Christian who had wintered there last year, and he survived it, but I don't think that he had a lot of fun.

Anyway, I think that trying to live on board in sustained temperatures below freezing, let alone below zero like ME gets is kind of miserable for most people. If you're the outdoorsy type and spend some time in the bush as it sounds you do, you will probably find it ok.

Condensation is probably the biggest problem. We have a good diesel heater (Webasto), and were running a couple of dehumidifiers last winter, and everything was still pretty damp against the hull and on the overhead. You definitely have to 'double pane' your hatches with some plastic, as the metal frames are just condensation magnets.

That's really the main issue for us when it gets really cold out. You certainly do need a proper heater. One of the gravity feed models will do you just fine on a 35-40 footer. On my previous boat (44'), we had a Dickinson stove with a heat exchanger in the stack ducting hot air aft. It was very good down to about 30 degrees and then we added an electric heater to the mix.

Of course, every boat is insulated differently, so what worked for me may be more or less than you need. I would avoid going only electric, and also avoid propane heat.

Remember that you'll be carrying water to your boat all winter. I think that it also might get cold enough in a bad Maine winter that the water will freeze in your tanks, but I have no direct experience of this.

Docks will be snowy/icy, and often get tossed around pretty good in the winter. It can be a little bit dicey when the wind gets up in some places.

So, all in all, it's doable, but not for the faint of heart. If you have any questions, I'll keep an eye on the thread.

Good luck, TJ

[Boatguy30]

I'm thinking you're better off house sitting for some cruisers that have a house but head south with the boat in the winter. Likely they'll keep the house heated anyway to some minimum level and will cost you next to nothing to look after it for them.

[2hullvenus]

I have wintered over in South Portland.

First choice, better for the boat, the crew and equally damaging to the wallet is to head south to warmer climates in the winter.

If you must winter over, insulate everything. Create vapor barriers.

Your worst enemy will be condensation and the mold that grows because of it.

You'll need a substantial heater.A single little ceramic heater won't do much. Can also be very expensive if you're paying electricity by the kwh.

Get a "direct vent" propane, kerosene or diesel heater. Also small wood stoves work great. Direct vent is a must. You won't need to worry about CO levels that way. The direct vent heaters draw outside air in down a separate chimney, then combust, then send exhaust gasses out the chimney. No room air is mixed with the combustion process.

[UNCIVILIZED]

It's not just the incredibly cold temp's that go with the Winter's there, which you have to be concerned about on the boat. But also, equally as important, all of the services which are usually easily obtainable via the dock (water, & power), as well as nearby.
For you'll be toting EVERYTHING back (and forth) to the boat.

Also, not to dissuade you, but if your stove goes out, & it's -20, you may not wake up.
I've spent a LOT of time outdoors, including Winter backpacking, etc. And to do a 6-8 month stint like that, solo, voluntarily is NOT on my Bucket List. And I like Winter, even routinely going outside sans shoes for 1/2hr @ a time during said season.

How about, giving yourself a "fall back" position. Meaning a place with at least the bare necessities, to which you can retreat.. for mental or physical health reasons. Say, a place/ad for someone looking for a roommate, part time even... perhaps for a couple hundred $ a month.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Jerry.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Jerryg

I am in the baby steps of full time liveaboard. My dilemma at this point is the cold winters.
I will either be in Portland or S.Portland Maine. I ask myself do I liveaboard year round or just during the warmer months? I could get a small appartment during the winter. I would love to sit down with someone who has or is fairing the harsh winters aboard. I have so many question. I'll by dinner.
Or better yet, invite me aboard for dinner. I can bring Deer, Moose whatever you like. I would rather stay on board year round if I can see that it is possible for my lifestyle.
My plan is to get something at least 35ft and under 40ft. I need to be able to single hand.
I have lots of experience surviving with little. I used to teach survival classes and do a lot of backpacking, and camping. So I can ruff it but I do want to be cozy in my boat home.
So any advice you all have would be great. If anyone is at Demilos or South Port Marine I would really like to talk to you.

Now I am off to do some more research.

Jerry

There are a bunch of liveaboards at DiMillo's and a few at Southport too. Electric heat is really not the way to go unless you are very careful and your shore power system is fully up to snuff..

I have a customer who often crashes on-board at DiMillo's (his boat is closer than his house and he works until the wee hours). He heats the boat with electric. On some days the boat is barely able to hit 50F with one 1500W heater and this is only a 32 footer. Along those same lines he almost burned his boat up drawing too much current through is "twist-lock" shore cord. I got the call in the middle of the winter that his "twist lock" socket was melting & smoking. Ideally if you want to heat with electric you will want dual 30A shore power, one for each heater, no different than a proper air conditioner install... IMHO the only somewhat safe electric heater are the oil filled "radiator" style..

A big Hatteras, 54 IIRC, burned up at Southport last year because the owner was trying to supplement with a portable propane heater. Please don't do this...

Perhaps teh best system I have seen is on my friend Tim's boat, a Caliber 40 at DiMillo's. Tim installed a Hurricane hydronic heater with multiple zones and they live comfortably year round... At DiMillo's the water hose is dropped to the bottom with a retrieval cord so that it does not freeze up. Fuel & such will need to be lugged down to the boat in jerry jugs once you are sealed up..

[lancelot9898]

I always enjoyed backpacking so living aboard even in winter aboard the boat was a luxury. My winters were not as harsh as yours, but there were some that produced single digits for weeks and here are my suggestions most of which as been mentioned.


1. Put a good tarp over the boat for snow protection
2. Winterize the engine. Even having heat in the cabin may not prevent the water muffler from freezing.
3. I did use resistor heating, but make sure you have a good connections as Mainesail stated. In the coldest temperatures I did have to run an additional line plus I had to watch the current draw when the hot water heater was heating.
4. If electric goes out, have another source of heat. I never did lose power, but had a force 10 propane heater vented to the outside. A more robust heater would be beneficial.
5. A way of filling your water tanks so that showers can be done aboard. A hose run under water is what I used.
6. A separate shower stall vented to the outside.
7. A microwave to avoid cooking from the stove top adding moisture.
8. Dorade vents open for the most part to add fresh air, although I did close off some in the coldest weather.
9. Good air flow in closets etc, to help prevent(lessen) condensation
10. A snow shovel to clear docks


Good Luck

[a64pilot]

I assume a desiccating head?
I'm not about to do this myself, you guys are way more dedicated than I am.
But the difficulties are interesting.
I guess you have to have e very secure way of boarding the boat, falling in could be deadly?

[hlev00]

I have a couple of friends that have done it in Boston and quite enjoyed it. Both were at a downtown Boston marina so had pretty decent facilities.

There is a Yahoo group called Boston Liveaboards.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...veaboards/info
They are a very helpful bunch and might be able to help you with some more specifics if you join the group and post your questions.

For a great book about a family wintering above the arctic circle check out Into The Light: A Family's Epic Journey - http://www.amazon.com/Into-Light-Fam...+sailing+books

[Dave22q]

I hate to be negative but wintering aboard in ME is somewhat nuts. No reasonably priced boat is built for 60-80 degree temperature differentials. None. You would probably save money as well as aggravation buy hauling and storing her and renting an apartment. I don't have time or space to list the problems but you might start with simply thinking about shoveling and salting the deck and dock to go ashore and that assumes you have a bubble rig that keeps the boat in unfrozen water and never breaks down or quits in a power outage.
Another way to look at it, would you consider wintering in a cabin with no fireplace or chimney and zero insulation? I really like Maine, sent 2 kids to school there, but...

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

I hate to be negative but wintering aboard in ME is somewhat nuts. No reasonably priced boat is built for 60-80 degree temperature differentials. None.

Yet there are plenty of liveaboards in Portland actually doing it...

Originally Posted by Dave22q

You would probably save money as well as aggravation buy hauling and storing her and renting an apartment.

Hauling and storage is nearly as costly as winter in-water rates are. Around here you are looking at about $3k for a 36 footer for winter on the hard haul, wash, store etc... A one bedroom apartment in Portland (one that is actually not a dumpster) is running $800.00+ per month + utilities with $1000.00 & up for something you might actually want to live in..

Originally Posted by Dave22q

I don't have time or space to list the problems but you might start with simply thinking about shoveling and salting the deck and dock to go ashore and that assumes you have a bubble rig that keeps the boat in unfrozen water and never breaks down or quits in a power outage.

The marinas that allow winter liveaboards shovel the docks and salt them. Boats are covered in-water so no need to shovel the decks unless you choose to be foolish and not to cover your boat.. None of the liveaboard marinas up here I know of need to use bubblers The current, tides and salinity in Portland Harbor are pretty good at keeping it ice free.. Occasionally we get skim-ice but it is gone pretty quickly..

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Another way to look at it, would you consider wintering in a cabin with no fireplace or chimney and zero insulation? I really like Maine, sent 2 kids to school there, but...

Why would you not have heat on a boat??? Boats with cored decks and hulls have a small level of insulation and they are not difficult to heat if you use the right equipment. Tim's Caliber is no different than their house was in winter. 70F, cozy, zero issues and they can walk to work and live in the middle of the Old Port with no property taxes, slip space at less than half the going rate of a 1 bedroom, and minimal overhead........ Living aboard allowed them to save enough money to take work sabbaticals and go cruising.

Living aboard in Maine is not as harsh or undoable as some make it out to be, but you need a good safe heat source, preferably a central heating system, with electric as a back up. AC heat pump systems only work until about mid November...

[Kayoko Monk 33]

I did that once in RI, Wickford Harbor. Kerosene heat, hurricane lamp and breathe caused ice to form on the inside of the hatches, I needed the light so I didnt insulate them but had two inches of polyeurathane foam on hull so i could warm it up. The docks were dangerous due to slipping and falling, had to keep them cleared. Ice never formed in water against hull but it was there, some used upwelling pumps. 46ft boat shrank to very small with two of us onboard. Next year I pulled and went out to CA.

[lesterbutch]

I did it a couple of winters in CT. and frequently came home to icecycles hanging
From the overhead! You would be better off either further South or in an apartment.

[CaptPFD]

Been many years since I worked at Dimillo's Marina but we always had several boats with winter live aboards... it turned into a community that looked after each other and I was impressed at how well they all faired, including one single woman living aboard... The Regency Gym was a favorite spot for some (showers etc) It would be well worth your while to head to marine and get some info direct ! Best