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TheThunderbird · 03-12-2016, 22:50

Please forgive me.
I wrote in my native language and translated automatically, with minimum rephrasing.
Do forgive my altered temper either, that which happens when i dont understand something... thank you!

NEW SAIL IS A CASINO !!!

Do l express shared concepts?

No sailmakers' site, nor sail-clothes manufacturers' site, is well done.

It is proposed in summarily dozens of versions ... summarily as well as the trite (dull) subdivisions cruiser / racing / magayacht, beyond which little is said, missing the QUANTITATIVE measures (modulus-elasticity-creep-weight etc.) and few criteria are only offered through bar charts (an ipse dixit) which is simply indecent as NOT being objectively comparable among others, even to the same manufacturer.

Giving tens of thousands of euro to such villains makes me turn OFF :-)

you can not imagine the weight of a sail overall. Nor its cost range, in advance
You just can not trust the weight/sqft proposed for mainsail, genoa 1-2-3 and jib 4-5, for they being highly random (at an equal LOA, some boats weigh half / twice as much, and will not count the sea / waves / guts /reach?! And with which consequences (stretches? Explodes? complains? Ages prematurely ??)

En passant, I would say that to insist on the same (why??) fabric for both mainsail and foresails seems to me plain BS, given the plethora of options, ... the worst forgery proposed to us, among the many ..

It is not clear if a laminate is to be glued or sewn , any % of exotic fibers contained, and why '. If costs twice or half of another almost equal ..

I say this, in a world of Idiots (sic) which proposed the kevlar dying in the sun, or the carbon that is broken at bending (the tubes that contain the fibers) .. and in fact now are decommissioned .... I said it , enough for it.

Producers who put out double taffeta (heavy and it gets wet, sooo wise!) Or inside (but so what for, then ??) Or one TAFFETA on one side ONLY (ie, a live hand, and a dead one suffering?? Someone please explain to me, I do not get there ...)

Then the glue, the point of weakness ... and the film (polymeric?) Without glue! (But if it is true, why do the Others continue to glue on !?)

Every sailmaker speaks to you, in good faith, you follow him and you get an idea, then follow his instructions to "see the site" and the house of cards falls! (See above)

Probably some of the Idiots (companies) above are economically dead or got " delaminated". Surely those who make fabrics are the few big ones .. but no, I learn of small, local ones, like PowerPlant, in Camerino, one in Civitanova ... Italy home to inventors and sailors ... right !?

Bottom line: I do not buy into it. Membranes cooked in an autoclave, glued and stitched laminates, hydranet and the likes (a technical-economic contradiction that has no rivals but in a FIAT500 tuning with the engine of a Countach ...)

Ok, I vented myself, sorry!, and I do not claim for an answer. I can say that I have no clear idea. Simply, I do not want to be teased by the producers who make 20 different tissues (Rolls-Royce has two models, a kid-mohair has two weights, etc.)

With all due respect for sailmakers, who suffer in silence the flood of manufacturers and variants into smallness of indexes, and a large dose of adventurism, groping in the dark, at our Expenses ..

The truth? As long as the hi-end sails are paid up by the sponsors, WHO CARES !?

... but to us , the ordinary sailors??

Should I trust the sailmaker !? Yes, but there are not two with such an identical proposal, indeed ....on the contrary....

As to the costs, we do not understand the intrinsic value of the material, and how it affects the total ..

.. the impression being that there are many overheads, and the cost of the product equals to 20% of the total. And a 40/40 go both to the sailmaker/M.O. , and to overheads (project r & d manufacturing) of the manufacturer? I do not think going far wrong ...

Yet, a 20% is charlatanesque...you see it in bad, preposterous restaurants...

PS
Would you buy an unknown metal alloy or a homemade one for a vital fixing (say ballast)?
Would you trust a "bronze" that only Polyant produces,
or a steel named 3DL by NS,
or an alloy DWS AP just freshly extruded, for the mast !?

I do not think so!
After all, the sails are underwear, sometimes they fall .. dishonorably

AND as to the learning curves,...i see there are more sailmakers then boats with fresh sails for each and every class of size/weight/sailing requirements...so, is past experience of some guidance!?

seahag · 03-12-2016, 23:58

Fascinating to try and follow. I can see that you may be brilliant, just some language and syntax stuff making it hard to follow but mostly I feel your pain, appreciate a good rant. What is your native language?

UNCIVILIZED · 04-12-2016, 01:36

I have no idea what you just said.

**Pete7** · 04-12-2016, 02:04

I think its a whinge about trying to sort out the differences in quality of sail fabrics and I can understand were he is coming from here, even if I can't follow the post. I had to invest quite a bit of time at the boat shows talking to the manufacturers looking at samples and discussing costs before I felt reasonably comfortable in placing an order.

If the budget wasn't an issue it would be easy. Hydranet or Vecktron. More difficult was finding a price / quality point from the huge range of Dacron sail cloths. I didn't want the cheapest as it would just stretch and the reason we needed a new Genoa in the first place after it tore a 4 foot seem in a sail 9 years old. Top of the range (Hydranet) was 2.5x the price of the cheapest so not really an option. In the end settled on a couple of options, Marblehead and C-Breeze then chose a sail maker. Thankfully the UK South Coast has a great selection to choose from. 4 years on I am happy with the decision made to use our local Kemps sail loft, so have just pulled the trigger on a replacement main in the same C-Breeze material from the same loft.

Pete

TheThunderbird · 04-12-2016, 02:20

Zeehahag, sorry for missing the Shakespearean flair this time...
I used a translator in the middle of the night, there was an earthquake, and the highway was clotted (The Blues Bros. cit.)

Pete, the array of fabrics in much wider among membranes and laminates. Happy you that restricted your choice on woven fabrics with some exotic yarns (Vectran).

Alas, i dont like dacron for its weight and handling, on a 750sqft blade jib on hanks, and hydranet is fundamentally wrong (for me, and imo).

UNCIVILIZED, :-), in a word, sail-cloth makers are unprofessional crooks groping in the dark at our expenses. They made incredible errors with new technologies in the past, and keep doing many of them which they (and we) do not realize yet.

It all comes at a cost, at no certainty other then our costly attempts while believing to our sailmaker (which one!?), and without having the proof of the contrary (comparisons forbidden..)

Information among performance and alternatives, costs, weights etc is approximate to fantastic, sloppy when not erroneous, or missing...
Pricing is a dark area, some second - choice quality fabrics are around in the market without any guarantee they will be used NOT for sails, and you must pray that Your sail will be cooked, sewn and glued correctly...out of the lottery.

Enough of it... it is like buying a car looking like an, Aston Martin 12V without knowing mechanics nor opening the bonnet...the wannabees do it, i dont like it.. :-)

TheThunderbird · 04-12-2016, 02:54

To draw a parallel, sail-making is still practicing with lobotomy, bleeding, and rain-making dance, without the benefit of smoking peyote..

I remember the time by when it was impossible to share a printer within an intranet office (1988), waiting 59sec for cold starting a PC (2005), or having the immediate retrieval of a web page just seen (the day after tomorrow..?) thus, please, dont tell me that the professionals know what they do. They don't. Or miss what they don't

That said, maybe I'm wrong, and choosing a sail is like having a bespoken blazer, the color of your choice...:-)

**weavis** · 04-12-2016, 03:02

I have used Kemps.

Kept it simple and the product fitted my criteria. I dont have the resources for the latest and greatest in sail technology and have been happy with the results.

I found that its easy to be confused if there are too many choices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HX9oD6h0QM

Delancey · 04-12-2016, 03:43

A friend got a set of sails produced in Thailand. He is very happy with them.

**weavis** · 04-12-2016, 03:55

I think all new sails are wonderful till they are not. The angst produced from finding out is directly comparable to the price paid...

Blue Stocking · 04-12-2016, 04:52

With the apparent fountain of wisdom you have access to, why not make them yourself. Seriously, others have.

**Pete7** · 04-12-2016, 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis

I have used Kemps.

Kept it simple and the product fitted my criteria. I dont have the resources for the latest and greatest in sail technology and have been happy with the results.

I found that its easy to be confused if there are too many choices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HX9oD6h0QM

That's Matt, he is making my new main

**Dockhead** · 04-12-2016, 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think its a whinge about trying to sort out the differences in quality of sail fabrics and I can understand were he is coming from here, even if I can't follow the post. I had to invest quite a bit of time at the boat shows talking to the manufacturers looking at samples and discussing costs before I felt reasonably comfortable in placing an order.

If the budget wasn't an issue it would be easy. Hydranet or Vecktron. More difficult was finding a price / quality point from the huge range of Dacron sail cloths. I didn't want the cheapest as it would just stretch and the reason we needed a new Genoa in the first place after it tore a 4 foot seem in a sail 9 years old. Top of the range (Hydranet) was 2.5x the price of the cheapest so not really an option. In the end settled on a couple of options, Marblehead and C-Breeze then chose a sail maker. Thankfully the UK South Coast has a great selection to choose from. 4 years on I am happy with the decision made to use our local Kemps sail loft, so have just pulled the trigger on a replacement main in the same C-Breeze material from the same loft.

Pete

Indeed. I read the OP the same way.

Here's how I approached it:

1. There is just no way you can figure this out for yourself. There is too little real information hiding in a huge mountain of marketing hype.

2. So you will just have to rely on a sailmaker you feel you can trust. The same way you have to trust your doctor, lawyer, etc.

3. So I looked for a sailmaker by asking cruisers I trusted, about what sailmakers they had used with good results.

4. I interviewed these and chose the guy who gave me the most confidence. A local guy I had easy access to. As Pete said, there are some big advantages to being based in the Solent.

5. I let him tell me about sailcloth choices, and let him help me with the choice.

And that worked well for me. Did I choose the best sailcloth in the whole world, with certainty that there is no other sailcloth anywhere, which would have worked better? Of course not. But life is not like that. What I chose has worked out very well and I am satisfied. That's all you can hope for in a case like this.

And you may be curious -- WHAT was the choice.

The parameters were - big boat, lots of strong weather, heavy emphasis on performance vs anything else. All furling cutter rig.

I went with carbon/technora laminate with taffeta on two sides, radial cut. It's exactly the same sailcloth used on the Swan 60 one design racers.

The sailmaker told me that the newer autoclaved laminates last longer and are much more resistant to mildew than older laminates. He said he had cruisers with a circumnavigation on a set of sails from this cloth, which were still in good condition. Longevity, resistance to mildew, chafe, and UV are of course very important to any cruiser.

I was also concerned that the carbon might be vulnerable to flogging, but the sailmaker told me that the new carbon cloths are not any more vulnerable to this than any other fiber. Don't know if that's true or not, but I haven't yet observed anything to contradict what he said.

I have now about 7000 miles on the new sails, and they are absolutely like new in all respects, without even slight signs of wear. So one more data point that going to laminate sails doesn't necessarily mean taking a big hit on longevity.

The double taffeta is heavy and yes, gets wet, but the sails are still a lot lighter than the Dacron ones they replaced.

The cost was significant -- more than what I paid for my first house. But about half of what I would have paid at North or one of the other global lofts. Although I am on the tail end (I hope) of a few very lean years in my business, so without extra money to burn (putting it mildly), I have never regretted this expense even for a second. If you like to sail, good sails are absolutely the best thing you can spend your boat budget on, followed closely by rigging, deck hardware, etc.

30yearslater · 04-12-2016, 05:54

I feel your pain. I went through a similar situation when I tried to buy a higher wind range set of sails for my boat. I wanted a heavy dacron jib and a 'Swedish Mainsail." I got quotes for jibs of various shapes, cuts and space age fabrics and quotes for mains with dozens of reef points of lighter weight cloth. Finally getting pissed off I went to Sail Warehouse and bought a 64 sq ft hank on jib in 8 oz dacron. Still looking for someone to make a "Swedish Main." Good luck sorting through the mess. If I find someone to make the main I will post who it is. Give the customer what they know they need and not what you think they should have.

TheThunderbird · 04-12-2016, 07:08

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

I have your same requirements, DH, with some more emphasis on upwind courses (in the Med), and the need of a multi-purpose 95% (700sqft) hanked blade jib to be hoisted alone, thus it must be with a good handling (no dacron no hydranet).

I will put it down with 25/28kns TWS (meaning that she can sail at 55/60°AWA -or less?- with one reefed main and AWS in the low 30s, likely in short guts of wind even in summertime here).

Ok, laminated, with Vectran, possibly with no/internal taffettà . I will get in touch with KEMP (yes, living in the Solent has some distinctive advantages :-)

PS i dont mind of light airs performance. As a liveaboard i can wait...

Later on, i will consider a jib 4 on staysail, as planning for Greece/meltemi

Yes, my deck gear is swan-like, i rerigged completely (soft staysail) and reviewed mast in depth..