What happens when your mast hits an opening bridge

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

That is interesting..... What kind of insurance?

I am more familiar with the Superyacht industry, where the professional captains I know...do not carry insurance other than their own medical.

If a yacht owner formally hires a captain then they are covered under the yacht's policy.

Is this a small boat delivery thing worldwide ?

Don't know about others.. but my contract states the yachts insurance for the trip is the owners responsibility and its up to the insurers to accept or reject my services for the trip.. that's one of the ways I keep my rate down.. fewer overheads.
I do however have an accident Insurance with my own boats insurer which covers me and any crew.
There have been occasions when the original insurers would not accept me but the owner wanted me particularly.. so they switched across to Panteanius.

[Pelagic]

a64pilot.....I think people like you and I, are burdened by our professional training and rarely allow ourselves to take chances.

We learn on the go, but never outside our comfort level

Some say that is boring and in a way they are right!

But I am always reminded of a Bilbo line from the Hobbit .....
Adventures are dangerous things, they make you late for dinner!

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Thus, bridges tend to only open enough (in the tender's view) to allow the vessel to pass through. And then only for long enough for the boat to make the transit. Where, it's quite common for bridges to begin to close long prior to a vessel completing it's passage through them while they're "open". And few folks, on the water, or in the bridge control station, plan for emergencies during said transit. With the boat, or the bridge.

Don't plan on seeing a bridge being fully open. Period. Whether it's prevented from doing so by it's mechanical limits. Or by those operating it. Nor should you plan on it being open for long, nor acquiescing to your wishes as to how things should be. Well, unless you tie up somewhere near it & know who to call in order to pressure the tender into changing his habits. And even then, you'll likely be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Since the tender of that bridge will know the tender's of others along your route, & all it takes is for him to make a few calls... to other bridge tenders. Or to the 1,001 folks that he knows along your route, to muck up your passage.

Folks don't take strangers messing with their livelyhood well. And honestly, few sailors (pro & otherwise) know what goes into the operation of bridge X, or Y. Including how far a bridge can actually open, or what the SOP's are for operating it.

And to play the what if game. Imagine that 5 or 25 miles away from the bridge there's an emergency, & that on the route that those solving that problem need to take is the bridge. What then with regards to it's opening, or not, & for how long? Few people are ever privy to such information, yet quite a few are likely to be affected by it.

Uncivilized, this strikes me as so much personal projection devolving into borderline paranoia.

It's an extremely rare event in my experience that a bridge does not open all the way, particularly double lift bridges. I've certainly never experienced it on the ICW. They open all the way. I've also never had a bridge operator on the ICW be anything other than polite, communicative, and professional. I'm sure there is the exception, but I surely doubt that they collectively plot and conspire to frustrate or endanger boaters who out of ignorance or rudeness end up aggravating or offending them.

The captain who hit the bridge made a bad decision based on the information available. It appears that the current was not all that much of an issue given his forward speed through the water at the time of the collision. Certainly he was much closer to the bridge, up current, than I ever would have been in that circumstance. I hang safely up current, @ 75-100 yards, and like Boatie, I don't start my run past the point where I can easily abort until the bridge is up and locked/stationary.

But we also don't know much about the circumstances of this collision. If there was a 70' motor yacht, poorly handled, breathing down his neck, who knows. We have one narrow video and some anecdotal and incomplete narrative. I'm not giving the captain the benefit of the doubt, just saying there may be other contributing factors that we just don't know about, as unlikely as that may appear.

As for the USCG license, it is next to worthless. I agree that it's nothing more than a test of book learning and then what is essentially a self-reported log of sea time. I know more than a few people who have fudged that component. You can be a mast hugger on a crewed charter and log that time and probably get away with it. The licensing process has no component for evaluating the single most important individual quality of a captain; judgement.

[Mr Saturn]

Originally Posted by GILow

OK, so the question to my mind is...

Is this sort of damage to be expected from such an incident? ... I just assumed the stays would have snapped, the mast would have come down in one more more pieces, anything immediately below the falling mast would have also been damaged. ... explain this for me?

Matt

Not wanting to open an old debate but their mast was keel stepped. If it had been deck stepped it might have had more give to it. Also strong standing rigging is what we strive for so when it does it's job and doesn't break we can't very well fault it for taking the fiberglass and wood with it.

[Keysrock]

I knew a guy who hit overhead wires, knocked out power for miles. When asked by the police what he thought happened his response was "I thought it was the second coming of Christ"

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Im amazed at some of the hate I can read through the lines. Yes, they are a pair of somewhat naive young people trying to re-create the sailing youtube channel phenomena. Hey, if they can pull it, the more the merrier! Here is a link to the actual incident for those who are not familiar with it. You can also see some of the damage on the video.

Aside from that, the boat they had is NOT a Ted Brewer design. It's a Celestial 48, which has been attributed to everyone and no one throughout the years (more info below).

Celestial 48: A Center Cockpit Cruising Sailboat Worth Dreaming About « www.yachtworld.com www.yachtworld.com

I was truly amazed that the mast didn't snap, but then again it was full frontal. The chainplate fiberglass assembly gave up before the cable. Makes sense maybe because the roller furler guide plus the actual sail where there, making it a tougher element to snap, and thus just pulling the stay out of the ship.

This opens a door for discussion about the whole USCG licensing system. I am not 100% familiar with it, but find it amazing that there is no actual human being ever evaluating if you can actually drive a boat. It's the whole multiple choice standarized testing dilemma of the US all over again. The "pool of questions" way of licensing, teaching and learning. There is no human evaluation that allows a bit more selection with the human element into consideration. I have seen tests like the RYA Yachtmaster and cannot understand how someone could study at home, show some easily botched sea-time (you could be a cook on a huge boat and add sea time and know nothing about navigation) and show themselves and get a 6 pack license. I sincerily do not understand how this can really work. Anyhow, they got one of the bad ones, who showed poor judgement. Because precisely judgement doesn't come into consideration on multiple choice tests. It's a weird system in the best case scenario.

Regarding the bridge operator ... stopping the bridge midway without any visual and auditive cues is really crappy. Anyone knows what level of liability bridge/county/city have in situations like this?

Gaucho,
The sentiments you express in your first paragraph are certainly kind. And, I would be the first to commend people attempting to realize their dreams. It is what life is really about in the grand scope of living. However, there is a disturbing trend(to me) in our video-addicted society that irrespective of what you are doing in life from the most mundane to the profound--that you need to share it with others. The young people in this video are certainly novices and the captain, in my opinion, is patently incompetent based upon the facts proferred. They believe, in their naivete, that there are those who are hungry to share their experiences. Perhaps they are right. For me, the bottom line is that our waterways can be dangerous places with countless incompetent people sailing boats beyond their skill level and putting others, as well as themselves, in jeopardy. This is certainly the case here and a lesson for all who take to the water with competence and a serious intent. Good luck and safe sailing.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

a64pilot.....I think people like you and I, are burdened by our professional training and rarely allow ourselves to take chances.

We learn on the go, but never outside our comfort level

Some say that is boring and in a way they are right!

But I am always reminded of a Bilbo line from the Hobbit .....
Adventures are dangerous things, they make you late for dinner!

It's not that, I have the scars to prove it, but I hope to take educated risks.
If you don't know what your doing, how can you determine the level of risk?
Think about this for a second, they were incompetent to motor down the ICW, likely one of the safest waterways in existence, yet they did exercise good judgment and hired a Pro.
Now I think about it, I don't think they were starting a Circumnav, I think that was a goal after gaining a couple of years experience, or they would not have had a Pro on board.

[mdbrown]

Originally Posted by Keysrock

I knew a guy who hit overhead wires, knocked out power for miles. When asked by the police what he thought happened his response was "I thought it was the second coming of Christ"

That's funny right there!

#1 cause of falls is gravity.
#1 cause of drownings is water.
#1 cause of collision with bridges is physics.

Unfortunate for the owners and the hired captain...good for us as we get to learn from their mistakes.

[redsky49]

"It's an extremely rare event in my experience that a bridge does not open all the way, particularly double lift bridges. I've certainly never experienced it on the ICW. They open all the way. I've also never had a bridge operator on the ICW be anything other than polite, communicative, and professional. I'm sure there is the exception, but I surely doubt that they collectively plot and conspire to frustrate or endanger boaters who out of ignorance or rudeness end up aggravating or offending them."

Respectfully, based on my frequent travels on the AICW over the past 20 plus years, I disagree. While this is true in general, I don't believe I have ever traveled an entire length of the ditch without encountering:

a bridge tender who was away from his station

a double bascule bridge where only one section was operable

a bridge undergoing maintenance that might have a barge or crane blocking the passage, or limiting the air clearance

a bridge tender who simply decided that she wasn't in the mood to open the bridge

a bridge that was only partially able to open

revised bridge operating hours due to to external reasons

Couple that with the tendency for small fishing boats to congregate at the bridge, currents under the bridge that can exceed 5 or 6 knots, limited maneuvering room due to the likelihood of grounding, etc., and bridges can indeed be a challenge.

We make a point of having the bridge names close at hand, along with the proper calling channel (in the US it varies according to state) and the phone number if all else fails. Signal horns are also useful, if no radio response. Many, if not most, of these operable bridges are quite old and can be unreliable. At some point you will likely have to drop the hook and simply wait for the bridge. I have at least on one occasion called the wrong bridge

The really good tenders know how to time the bridge opening for slow-moving sailboats, making the passage seamless. It's almost like a ballet. I find this true in Daytona, for instance, where the bridges are opening constantly. Others are not so capable, particularly when they have more infrequent openings and perhaps less practice. Some bridges operate quite a bit slower than others, particularly when opening. The time from full closed to full open varies greatly.

I am familiar with the bridges at Jupiter. There is a lot of congestion there, and can be a real circus on nice weekends when all the rookies are out on the water. Plus this is an inlet, where the current runs pretty strong.

While I can't explain the bridge's failure to complete the opening, the "captain" has a lot to answer to.

Do your homework before you start. Be cautious. Never enter the fenders until you have adequate clearance to pass through. Be alert. When all else fails, call the Coast Guard.

[Cheechako]

Very good advice about current around bridges. It's often there. Never put yourself in a situation when you need to go into reverse. Do a slow circling thing instead... and give plenty of room to turn as you may be going sideways at 5 knots sometimes!
My first experience with ICW bridges was at Wrightsville Beach, south Carolina. The bridge was called Crab Cut IIRC. Out mast was 64+ ft. The bridge was supposed to be 65 ft. The cut is narrow. As we approached I suddenly realized the current was very fast under the bridge. I tried to slow down by going hard into reverse. All that did was turn the boat sideways. We went under the bridge sideways with the VHF antenna tapping bridge girders along the way. WHEW!
We had just had a total mast /rigging rebuild in Annapolis to the tune of about $25k.

[Redpcx]

My view.
An inexperienced couple hired somebody to operate their boat AND teach them skills as they were underway?
Why not ? It worked in the movie "Captain Ron."
If the couple is not experienced, they should have gained experience long before taking off.
The work they were doing on there boat was probably not done well, remember, not experienced.
Only one person onboard who was competent, his skill was divided a little too thin.
They are lucky. This was a foolish venture, almost always ends in disaster, hopefully just financial disaster. At least they survived. And walked away!
I have talked with many people new to boating. The hired captain was a brave soul indeed.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Cabo Jim

We were starting our cruising season in Brunswick Ga. in November and met a young couple, Austin and Niki and they had just purchased a Ted Brewer designed 48 ft ketch. They were working hard getting her ready to start their circumnavigation. Their enthusiasm was infectious and many regulars in the marina were helping them out with advise, assistance and donations of equipment. They were organized and had a plan, to rename the boat Salty Mermaid and start their circumnavigation from Brunswick Ga. After looking after numerous details including polishing their fuel that had been sitting in the tank for four years and repairing the auto pilot, they were finally ready. The only thing missing was experience so they did the right thing and hired a captain to take them down the coast to Fort Lauderdale where friends would meet them and help them sail to the Caribbean. The dream was happening. They set off on a beautiful December morning and sailed outside or motored down the ditch as weather dictated. They eventually made it to Jupiter Inlet. They negotiated the inlet with no problem and the captain hailed the bridge, "Jupiter bridge, Jupiter bridge". The bridge tender did not respond. There are in fact two Jupiter bridges, After repeated attempts to contact the bridge eventually they were close enough to see the name on the bridge as Jupiter Federal bridge. Austin hailed the bridge and requested an opening. The bridge tender finally complied, but the boat when backing up started to go into a marina near the bridge. A strong flood current was running at the time. The captain put the boat into forward and decided to go through the bridge before it was fully open and the forestay, stay sail and mast hit the bridge. The result was major damage to the rigging, mast and internal structures of the boat. To quote Austin, "The damage is pretty bad, we are looking at close to 50k in damage, which may cause the boat to be totalled. We have a hole in the bow and are taking on water via the stringers, the mast is raked aft, instruments all destroyed on mast head, stay and headsail are destroyed and pulled bulkheads and chainplates with them. Some issues with the stringers as well." This is a very sad story and possibly the end to their dream. Go to sailingsaltymermaid.com to learn more and see the youtube video of the accident.
What we can all learn about opening bridges from this very tragic event is:
1) Know the exact name of the bridge you are approaching.
2) Have the phone number of the bridge (available from Active Captain) ready in case radio communication fails.
3) Have an alternate plan in the event the bridge fails to open. In a strong current leave yourself room to turn around and get away from the bridge.
4) Stay well outside the fenders until the bridge is fully open.
5) Furl or drop any sails before going through the bridge.
6) Contact other traffic approaching the bridge as required. Channel 9 is not just for bridges.
Be safe out there.
Cabo Jim

....

7) Dont hire a bone head for a captain.

8) Make sure captain is insured.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Cabo Jim

We were starting our cruising season in Brunswick Ga. in November and met a young couple, Austin and Niki and they had just purchased a Ted Brewer designed 48 ft ketch. They were working hard getting her ready to start their circumnavigation. Their enthusiasm was infectious and many regulars in the marina were helping them out with advise, assistance and donations of equipment. They were organized and had a plan, to rename the boat Salty Mermaid and start their circumnavigation from Brunswick Ga. After looking after numerous details including polishing their fuel that had been sitting in the tank for four years and repairing the auto pilot, they were finally ready. The only thing missing was experience so they did the right thing and hired a captain to take them down the coast to Fort Lauderdale where friends would meet them and help them sail to the Caribbean. The dream was happening. They set off on a beautiful December morning and sailed outside or motored down the ditch as weather dictated. They eventually made it to Jupiter Inlet. They negotiated the inlet with no problem and the captain hailed the bridge, "Jupiter bridge, Jupiter bridge". The bridge tender did not respond. There are in fact two Jupiter bridges, After repeated attempts to contact the bridge eventually they were close enough to see the name on the bridge as Jupiter Federal bridge. Austin hailed the bridge and requested an opening. The bridge tender finally complied, but the boat when backing up started to go into a marina near the bridge. A strong flood current was running at the time. The captain put the boat into forward and decided to go through the bridge before it was fully open and the forestay, stay sail and mast hit the bridge. The result was major damage to the rigging, mast and internal structures of the boat. To quote Austin, "The damage is pretty bad, we are looking at close to 50k in damage, which may cause the boat to be totalled. We have a hole in the bow and are taking on water via the stringers, the mast is raked aft, instruments all destroyed on mast head, stay and headsail are destroyed and pulled bulkheads and chainplates with them. Some issues with the stringers as well." This is a very sad story and possibly the end to their dream. Go to sailingsaltymermaid.com to learn more and see the youtube video of the accident.
What we can all learn about opening bridges from this very tragic event is:
1) Know the exact name of the bridge you are approaching.
2) Have the phone number of the bridge (available from Active Captain) ready in case radio communication fails.
3) Have an alternate plan in the event the bridge fails to open. In a strong current leave yourself room to turn around and get away from the bridge.
4) Stay well outside the fenders until the bridge is fully open.
5) Furl or drop any sails before going through the bridge.
6) Contact other traffic approaching the bridge as required. Channel 9 is not just for bridges.
Be safe out there.
Cabo Jim

I hope they vetted the Capt. who should have had insurance since he was getting paid. You missed one thing, bridges will still respond to a horn.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by redsky49

Respectfully, based on my frequent travels on the AICW over the past 20 plus years, I disagree. While this is true in general, I don't believe I have ever traveled an entire length of the ditch without encountering:

a bridge tender who was away from his station

a double bascule bridge where only one section was operable

a bridge undergoing maintenance that might have a barge or crane blocking the passage, or limiting the air clearance

a bridge tender who simply decided that she wasn't in the mood to open the bridge

a bridge that was only partially able to open

revised bridge operating hours due to to external reasons

Oh I've certainly run into everything you've listed, but never a rude or vindictive bridge tender, to me. When they have refused to open the bridge (after responding and making it clear that the bridge is manned) they've a reasonable if clipped explanation.

I've also heard other boats hailing a bridge with no clue about the appropriate channel, it's opening schedule, clearance, etc. and making vague and unreasonable requests or demands, and curt irritated responses, and sometimes no response at all. But if you follow the protocol and don't expect to be babysat they're mostly all pretty civil.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Oh I've certainly run into everything you've listed, but never a rude or vindictive bridge tender, to me. When they have refused to open the bridge (after responding and making it clear that the bridge is manned) they've a reasonable if clipped explanation.

I've also heard other boats hailing a bridge with no clue about the appropriate channel, it's opening schedule, clearance, etc. and making vague and unreasonable requests or demands, and curt irritated responses, and sometimes no response at all. But if you follow the protocol and don't expect to be babysat they're mostly all pretty civil.

Although I asking about clearance, one did say the sky's the limit when I'm open. But I will agree, bridge and lock tenders are usually great people. I feel sure they need to put up with a bunch of arrogant A-holes.