Club footed Staysail Rigging

[Tayana42]

Snowpetral, thanks for the mention of preventers. I have rigged a preventer to control twist and to keep the staysail boom well out when DDW. I like the idea of two rigged permanently. Can you post photos of yours?


S/V B'Shert

[Xthewater]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

I've always loved Cape Dorys. Good luck rigging it. Send pictures.

The double block at the aft end of your boom will give greater purchase than my single block. I have never felt the need for more mechanical advantage. How big is your staysail?




S/V B'Shert

25' leech 27' luff 9.5' foot 118sq.ft.
You can see pics and progress @ https://capedory31.wordpress.com/

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by Xthewater

25' leech 27' luff 9.5' foot 118sq.ft.
You can see pics and progress @ https://capedory31.wordpress.com/

Lovely boat. Nice pics.


S/V B'Shert

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by coolboat30

So, is there actually such a thing as a self tacking staysail without a boom? If so, pros and cons?

I know cats better than monos so here are a few examples of boomless headsails. Seawind 1160, Lagoon TPI 42, most older Outremers, and Maine Cats. The advantage of boomless is that it is not in the way and the danger is reduced. However the boom gives better control of sail shape. Manta used a camber spar rig which might be the best of both worlds. Another technical issue is the smaller headsail will mean less power than a big genoa so the entire rig and mast ht. will have to be designed so everything works well.
It is interesting to note that performance oriented cats like Gunboat, the Chris White Atlantic series, and Outremers all used boomless self tacking jibs (also called a solent) in their designs so it must work pretty good.

Now Chris White has reinvented the concept with the Mast foil 47 and that one does have a forward boom but with a really unique rig.

[ryon]

Renata is a beautiful boat! She deserves the special effort that you are giving her. As a matter of philosophy, I would put the sheet tackle at the tack, or at the traveler if there is one. Shorter boom, less weight flying around. The preventer can be any suitable grab line with a bowline for the boom, made to any convenient cleat.

[coolboat30]

I apologize for being so persistent. I'm really interested in this question. I am in the process of buying a cutter that has apparently been used as a sloop since there is no staysail on board and a lot of folks around here are negative on dealing with a staysail. I figure a boat designed for a satysail should be able to fly one.

I want to consider what I think are all the options: 1.) self-tacking with boom. (Very well explored here. Thank you, all!) 2.) tacked from the cockpit 3.) self-tacking without a boom (if that is possible) Is there an option I am not thinking of?

Can I have self-tacking without a boom?

Why is having self-tacking so important?

This is not directly to the point but, I used to work on a big schooner and we tacked four jibs when under full sail. (I know: more hands, more time, more room.)

[admiralslater]

I have started to consider club footing the jib on my Outremer 45 as the self tacking system from the factory is junk. The traveler is curved opposite of the radius of the sail so except when going hard up wind it cannot be trimmed. Club footing it would allow me to go off the wind much better. As it is even a close reach challenges the sheeting positions .
I love the boat but that aspect is brutal and I can't believe that nobody has mentioned it
The boat that does it best IMO is the PDQ 44 where the track matches the swing radius of the jib clew which allows the sail to be let out on the sheet while maintaining the car position

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

Snowpetral, thanks for the mention of preventers. I have rigged a preventer to control twist and to keep the staysail boom well out when DDW. I like the idea of two rigged permanently. Can you post photos of yours?


S/V B'Shert

I had a look on my files, unfortunately no good photo's. My folks boat has the boomed staysail. For years she just had two to one port and stb sheets. We have just modified it to making it self tacking, but I don't have any photos. I'd just go a single line from near the boom end, though a block on the toe rail near the Fwd shrouds,and then back to a cleat in the cockpit. Take it to a spare winch in strong conditions. Make it long enough to reach the tack so you can pull them forwards out of the way.

Another thing that really helps a boomed staysail is jacklines in the lower portion of the luff. These mean you don't have to ease the outhaul when you drop the sail.

I've used the non boom self tackers. They are nice to windward , but need Barbour haulers (much like the preventers) to get them to set well when reaching, so still lots of rope about the place,and when reaching in strong winds you can't ease and flatten the sail like you can with a boomed sail (unless you're on a wide cat or tri) so I still like my booms.

Yet another good idea is a full length batten at the head of the sail. Makes a world of difference to the set of the sail, and the sail can be twisted away to depower the rig without the top flogging.



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[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I had a look on my files, unfortunately no good photo's. My folks boat has the boomed staysail. For years she just had two to one port and stb sheets. We have just modified it to making it self tacking, but I don't have any photos. I'd just go a single line from near the boom end, though a block on the toe rail near the Fwd shrouds,and then back to a cleat in the cockpit. Take it to a spare winch in strong conditions. Make it long enough to reach the tack so you can pull them forwards out of the way.

Another thing that really helps a boomed staysail is jacklines in the lower portion of the luff. These mean you don't have to ease the outhaul when you drop the sail.

I've used the non boom self tackers. They are nice to windward , but need Barbour haulers (much like the preventers) to get them to set well when reaching, so still lots of rope about the place,and when reaching in strong winds you can't ease and flatten the sail like you can with a boomed sail (unless you're on a wide cat or tri) so I still like my booms.

Yet another good idea is a full length batten at the head of the sail. Makes a world of difference to the set of the sail, and the sail can be twisted away to depower the rig without the top flogging.



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About that full length batten at the head of the sail-- I've considered this myself. Do you have such a set up or have you had it? Thanks!

[Snowpetrel]

Yes. The head of my folks staysail was very full. We added a single stiff full length batten to stabilise the leach and flatten the sail, since it's most valuable in strong winds and is an extremely good sail for motorsailing to windward with the mizzen. The full length batten has been fantastic. No bother and has improved the set of the sail no end.



Here's a pic of the maid with the staysail reefed . You can just make out the batten holding the head of the sail flat. The staysail is vanged to leeward with the preventer to control the twist, but we let everything twist off a little so we could feather her into the bullets slightly to depower her. . This photo was taken in a lull, with us powering her back up. It was a great sail!

[Snowpetrel]

Here's a pic of the maids current setup. It doesn't have the preventers on yet, as we've been playing with a few other ideas, to make it self tacking. But the original system was separate 2:1 port and stb sheets. Worked very well but it was not fully self tacking. This needed no winches, and could be easily tweaked to get the sail shape spot on for windward or reaching.

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[Scaramanga F25]

To, Cool boat.

I have had both boomed and non-boomed head sails. Sloop and cutter.
A boom destroys any chance of a good set in light air because of its weight.
It tries to fall to the centerline. Preventers may get you in trouble.
The boom is always in the way. Climb over it. Sail may get dirty when weighing anchor.
It will injure you at the most inopportune time.

The best way is to have a traveller immediately forward of the mast, two blocks one on each side will do however. Have the sheet go to the traveller and then forward to the headstay before going back to the cockpit. Like on a Soling or a C&C Mega 30. The sail is best on a furler with vertical battens supporting the roach on the luff.

I have won many races with this arrangement.

Hated the club on myW32.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

To, Cool boat. I can't argue about the boom being in the way. Some boats it's a pain, others not.

I have had both boomed and non-boomed head sails. Sloop and cutter.
A boom destroys any chance of a good set in light air because of its weight.
It tries to fall to the centerline. Preventers may get you in trouble.
The boom is always in the way.

On the contrary, with a prevented and a topping lift the boom is held in exactly the right place, and all the weight is off the clew. Not sure how the preventers are going to get you in trouble? Had none yet in the 25 odd years I've been sailing the 'maid'



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[ErBrown]

Our boat, IP40 is currently setup with a staysail boom that we're currently considering removing. We're working with a local rigger and he's convinced that if we have the new staysail cut properly (we're purchasing a new set of sails as well), that we'll be able to maintain the self tacking capability using the currently hardware and removing the boom.

Not saying that's the right move for everyone, but for us, we want the deck space back, hate dealing with the boom blocking the hatch for the forward head when at anchor, yes we can move it but it's a pain. That and we hate not being able to use the staysail when we have the dinghy on the foredeck. For offshore work, we pretty much need the dinghy up there, and that's exactly the time we want the staysail to be an option.

Is that a crazy idea?

[Scaramanga F25]

Preventers, topping lift, boom, get rid of all that stuff.
Try something else, simpler and better.
Only 25 years...how many boats.
How many storms.