1994 Bristol Channel Cutter - what would you pay?

[ohdrinkboy]

Bernie at Rogue Wave Yacht Sales in Annapolis can probably give you a good idea. He owned one and has sold many. No personal interest in his business, but have tipped a few beers with him and seems like a stand up guy with lots of sea miles under his belt.

[bglad]

I looked them up on soldboats and they ran from $40K to $195K. My initial impression was $75K and I see others thought $60K or so. Sailing vessels require more study to flesh out all their benefits but from strictly a cruising standpoint I think there are better choices. If style counts in your analysis doesn't look like a bad choice...

[Cheechako]

As mentioned, it a long boat overall for 28 ft of waterline, narrow too. Yet... they are pretty cool if that's your thing. I think 110 k is getting too close to a Passport 40 or similar boat. It seems like I have seen some clean BCC's in the last couple of years at 89k or so asking. Would still be tough for me at that price. You've got to want it I guess.... I just have trouble getting my head around that much boat for that much price to even say a price...

[Rhapsody-NS27]

The BCC link posted in the initial post seems to be a nice looking boat. Determining what a fair value would be may not be easy. Lyle Hess boats do not seem to be as plentiful as others. I just saw three other BCCs on Yacht World with one listed at $55k and the other two at $89k. The YW ones are older while the one in the link is a 1994.

Lyle Hess designed boats, I think, would need some research to determine what a fair offer would be and comparing what extras are included.

They are nice looking boats.

[terminalcitygrl]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

That's why I put the little alert there. I was restating the obvious. You really didn't need to agree with it but it is your thread so have at it.

Yes, I would like a Bristol Channel Cutter but I can buy a Mariner 36 Cutter made in the Tayana yard here on the island for $25K. It has way more room and a newer engine and was designed by Bill Garden who is one of my favorite and is a well respected designer. So I would not pay even $25K for the BCC.

Just my opinion. Is that a better answer?

Yes!

[seacap]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IMO, the BCC has long been an overpriced item. It is attractive to traditionalists, and the build quality is generally good, but really...

We've known and cruised in company with several BCC's. My personal observation is that they are not nearly as fast as their proponents claim, they are very wet in any kind of a seaway, and the accommodations are cramped, and engine access is poor, and...

But, the Lyle Hess cult is alive and well, and that seems to drive up the price. If the mystique is valuable to you, go right ahead and spend the money. If not, well, there are a lot of nice boats in that price range!

Cheers,

Jim

I didn't buy my BCC because of the mystique or the Pardeys. I bought it because it was as well built as you can get and an excellent sea boat. The most comfortable and dry boat I have ever sailed on. I have no idea what BCC's you have known, but your description is totally off base.

After working as professional skipper for 15 years I had a lot of experience on all kinds of vessels up to 85'. After owning a Lyle Hess design for 22 years (16 on an engineless 22 Falmouth, and now 6 on BCC ) there are few other vessels I would consider for myself.

Would I buy one again, you bet. Are the over priced, not really.
You must compare apples to apples.
People seem to focus on the 28' number. This is the most erroneous number to judge the size of a vessel.
Compare the BCC to a Crealock 34
On deck length 28/34
Length waterline 26.25/26.25
Beam 10/10
Draft 4.83/4.92
Displacement 14000/13500
Ballast 4600/4800
Sail area 673/533

Oh, and the long bowsprit. You just need to knock out one wood fid and the whole thing slides inboard. So you only have to pay for 30'.

Keep in mind the displacement number. Probably one of the more important numbers in judging the size of a vessel. Note that the USCG issues licenses based on tonnage, not on length. Also custom boat builders usually base a bid for a custom build on the displacement. A price per pound as it were.

Now go price a Crealock 34
Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34 boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

I also would bet big money that I would beat a Crealock 34 into port by 2-4 days on a passage from San Diego to Tahiti. And that could mean we beat a storm in, or get the last of the ice cream supply.

I have ridden out 3 hurricanes on my Falmouth, the small sister to the BCC. I was so confident in the construction that I went to bed just after the eye of a cat 3 past by. I was also in a very good hole.

So I would say, without reservation that the BCC is good value. Make no mistake, she is a serious sea boat, not a floating condo.

I'm I trying to sell my boat? Not in the least. If I can I will pass it on to my heirs.

Oh by the way, the price was CAN not USD, so take off 10,000

IMHO

[goboatingnow]

Why people buy an 18th century design that was designed to be basically overnighted on by a man and a boy is beyond me.
Nostalgia is a great sales tool

Dave

[seacap]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why people buy an 18th century design that was designed to be basically overnighted on by a man and a boy is beyond me.
Nostalgia is a great sales tool

Dave

Dave, please refer to your own signature. Your description is simplistic in the extreme.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by seacap

Dave, please refer to your own signature. Your description is simplistic in the extreme.

I stand by my comments. They were firstly a product of its times. They were never designed to cover Long distances ( no small boat was at the time ) they were cramped because of being a single purpose product.

Primarily they were designed to be sailed by one boy. That was the key factor -rig simplicity

That's all, you could have picked any number of small coastal pilot cutters , fishing smacks from that period. Primarily the BCC ( not the US manufacturer ) is a trip down nostalgia lane. It's why there still are people that buy Morgan Cars.

If you want heavy weather ability get a version of a Challange yacht , now that's a capable vessel

Dave

[Seawindii]

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/40489

As much as I love to look at BCC's, there are many other great alternatives at that price. This one just popped up today. Cutter, full keel, proven design, great cond. etc. And you can actually live in it..

[Rhapsody-NS27]

Originally Posted by seacap

I didn't buy my BCC because of the mystique or the Pardeys. I bought it because it was as well built as you can get and an excellent sea boat. The most comfortable and dry boat I have ever sailed on. I have no idea what BCC's you have known, but your description is totally off base.

After working as professional skipper for 15 years I had a lot of experience on all kinds of vessels up to 85'. After owning a Lyle Hess design for 22 years (16 on an engineless 22 Falmouth, and now 6 on BCC ) there are few other vessels I would consider for myself.

Gary, you have a nice looking BCC.

I'm still fairly new to sailing but I think Lyle Hess did a good job designing his boats. I like the older style/look of them. I didn't get my Nor'sea because it was by Lyle Hess. I just got it because they have a very good reputation of being a strong build and can go just about anywhere. The owners group has been very helpful too. I love my boat and have every intention of holding onto it for many years.

I have an idea of what I would get if I were to get a larger boat, but not necessarily a Hess design. I like the look of older boats, others don't. There are plenty of boats out there for everyone.

[seacap]

Dave your criticism of the BCC is one of the very reasons I like the boat. It is easily handled by a short crew in heavy weather, and the Bristol Channel is one very rough piece of ocean.
This was a deciding factor for me. They are proven vessels in one of the most difficult areas of the world.

I can't afford a few million for a Challenge.
I hope your teeth are firmly anchored in your mouth, because with the flat forward section she will pound hard going to weather, although she will do it quickly. I notice in all the photos of a challenge that they are running very large crews. They are an excellent boat for ocean racing. But that is not what I am after.

I did not buy my BCC out of nostalgia. I bought it from many years of blue water voyaging.

So I think we can easily agree to disagree.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by seacap

Dave your criticism of the BCC is one of the very reasons I like the boat. It is easily handled by a short crew in heavy weather, and the Bristol Channel is one very rough piece of ocean.
This was a deciding factor for me. They are proven vessels in one of the most difficult areas of the world.

I can't afford a few million for a Challenge.
I hope your teeth are firmly anchored in your mouth, because with the flat forward section she will pound hard going to weather, although she will do it quickly. I notice in all the photos of a challenge that they are running very large crews. They are an excellent boat for ocean racing. But that is not what I am after.

I did not buy my BCC out of nostalgia. I bought it from many years of blue water voyaging.

So I think we can easily agree to disagree.

Having sailed in the Bristol Channel its not much different to most estuaries. It's hardly the ocean

I wasn't really having a go at BCC. More the nostalgia culture that's try's to convince prople that something out of the 18 th century can be better the modern systems designed with the benefit of modern engineering tools and more importantly a proper understanding of hydrodynamics

It like saying the mars rover would have better been a modern model T.

Boats are machines at the end of the day. Science and engineering improve machines. ( even if not ultimately what gets to the sales office )

I still don't understand this fascination , almost exclusively in the US with " traditional " design. (most of it old European designs to boot ) Has it something to do with the preponderance of chrome on your cars or what. !!

Dave

[Barefootnavigat]

How fun is this! I couldn't possibly not join in so here is my first post and this is just my 2 cents which is all its worth. First off I'm not the greatest sailor in the world. I haven't circumnavigated, swash-buckled with pirates or rounded either of the horns. I'm 45 years old and have been a continual part of the water front since I was 18. You learn a lot in those years and I have been fortunate enough to have passed many sea miles in many boats good and bad in those years. How would I describe my Falmouth Cutter 22 the smaller sibling to the BCC? She is slow wet and tender just how I like her. The truth is if you want to get anywhere fast and in comfort you should do it by plane. If you want a boat that sails like a dream in all weather, is as fun to look at as she is to sail and will bring you home safely and in relative comfort look no further.

Having said that I will add that there is a difference and after 25 years of being fortunate enough to sail hundreds of boats thousands of miles I found that the design of Lyle Hess and the construction of Sam Morse was the only boat I would consider to safely carry me across the sea. I have spent the better part of the last two years completely rebuilding my little cutter so my experience with her is limited mostly to just this last year. Before making the plunge I sailed an Allegra 24 and a Flicka both good boats.

My experience so far is that my boat out performs her reputation in many ways. My galley has more usable space than a Catalina 36, I have the same size V birth as a Cape Dory 36 and larger more comfortable midship sea berths than a Halberg Rassey 46. My boat is small but can carry 3,000 lbs of cargo all tucked away and not sink beyond my DWL.

My boat is tiny and when docking handles like a toy in light air sails like a dingy and in heavy air feels more like a ship. There are down sides, I cant beat to weather in more that 45 knots of wind although that my be a lack of skill on top of having a small light boat. here are a few numbers you might find interesting.

Capsize ratio, the smaller the number the safer the boat.

Motion Comfort, the higher the number the more comfortable the boat is.

Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Shannon 28
1.81
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Shannon 28
28.99
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Yankee 30 MK III
1.67
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Yankee 30 MK III
31.01
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Pacific Seacraft 31
1.77
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Pacific Seacraft 31
30.35
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Valiant 32
1.84
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Valiant 32
28.36
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Hans Christian 33
1.77
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Hans Christian 33
35.43
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Island Packet 35
1.85
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Island Packet 35
30.28
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Hallberg-Rassy 36
1.83
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Hallberg-Rassy 36
29.49
Capsize Ratio Falmouth Cutter 22
1.64
Cheoy Lee Offshore 38
1.83
Motion Comfort Falmouth Cutter 22
33.59
Cheoy Lee Offshore 38
30.52
These numbers don’t tell the whole story but they do tell a very important one.

My current survey value is 57K so I could obviously sell her and purchase a much larger boat but personally I seek quality not quantity. I have been living aboard for almost three years with zero complaints. I sailed her engine-less for a year but lets face it I'm no Larry Pardey. I spent another year using a Yuloh and this year added a 6 hp engine. I only got 100 days in this year but am already looking forward to a goal of 180 in 2014.

So in my very limited experience to me she is well worth the price both in design and construction. I don't love my boat because I own it, I own it because I love her. The bottom line is I just love sailing, sailing all boats. It took me 25 years and ownership of 11 boats before I was truly aware of what I wanted out of a boat and what I didn't want or need. My boats name is Sookie and she is currently exploring the Salish Sea. I just loaded 10 cases of wine aboard so if you see us out there please do say hi and share a glass of wine with me.

One last thought on performance, if you truly think these boats are slow I'm always up for a gentleman's race.
Art Of Hookie | Will work for food or money.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by seacap

I didn't buy my BCC because of the mystique or the Pardeys. I bought it because it was as well built as you can get and an excellent sea boat. The most comfortable and dry boat I have ever sailed on. I have no idea what BCC's you have known, but your description is totally off base.

After working as professional skipper for 15 years I had a lot of experience on all kinds of vessels up to 85'. After owning a Lyle Hess design for 22 years (16 on an engineless 22 Falmouth, and now 6 on BCC ) there are few other vessels I would consider for myself.

Would I buy one again, you bet. Are the over priced, not really.
You must compare apples to apples.
People seem to focus on the 28' number. This is the most erroneous number to judge the size of a vessel.
Compare the BCC to a Crealock 34
On deck length 28/34
Length waterline 26.25/26.25
Beam 10/10
Draft 4.83/4.92
Displacement 14000/13500
Ballast 4600/4800
Sail area 673/533

Oh, and the long bowsprit. You just need to knock out one wood fid and the whole thing slides inboard. So you only have to pay for 30'.

Keep in mind the displacement number. Probably one of the more important numbers in judging the size of a vessel. Note that the USCG issues licenses based on tonnage, not on length. Also custom boat builders usually base a bid for a custom build on the displacement. A price per pound as it were.

Now go price a Crealock 34
Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34 boats for sale - www.yachtworld.com

I also would bet big money that I would beat a Crealock 34 into port by 2-4 days on a passage from San Diego to Tahiti. And that could mean we beat a storm in, or get the last of the ice cream supply.

I have ridden out 3 hurricanes on my Falmouth, the small sister to the BCC. I was so confident in the construction that I went to bed just after the eye of a cat 3 past by. I was also in a very good hole.

So I would say, without reservation that the BCC is good value. Make no mistake, she is a serious sea boat, not a floating condo.

I'm I trying to sell my boat? Not in the least. If I can I will pass it on to my heirs.

Oh by the way, the price was CAN not USD, so take off 10,000

IMHO

Seacap, it is always good to love and admire one's boat, and I'm happy for you.

But I disagree with your opinions as expressed above. Many of your points are subjective, ie dryness and comfort. One can not judge anothers comfort from afar, but I can surely tell if they are taking spray in the cockpit while sailing alongside them (as I have repeatedly done). The combination of low freeboard and heavy displacement doesn't tend to make a dry boat.

Long bowsprit... well, I was not aware that they were readily collapsible. The reason that I hadn't twigged to this is that I have never seen one in a marina thus altered. They have all had their sprits extended, and were paying the full price. Perhaps is isn't as easy as you think, I dunno.

Your point about boats being priced on a per-pound basis may be true when comparing similar builds and styles, but I don't think that it applies across the gap between modern and traditional styles. For an extreme example, comparing an Outriemer (sp?)catamaran and a BCC on that basis does not work out. Any other modern hi-tech boat would have worked in this example, for building to a lightweight design is not cheap on a per pound basis, while simply building up bulk GRP and pouring lead is. And I don't understand the relevance of your reference to Coast Guard licensing practices...

Finally, performance! Your claims of performance relative to a Crealock 34 (a vessel not known to be a flyer, BTW) are not borne out by real world observations. If you check the PHRF ratings for the two designs, you will find that the Crealock rates around 200 seconds/mile and the BCC around 240. That is a significant differential, and it indicates that in all round performance, the Crealock is faster. You can, perhaps, find a particular set of circumstances where this would be reversed, again I dunno, but across all the varied situations that have been encountered by the boats whose data were included int the PHRF data base, the Crealock was in fact faster. If you compare boats on a speed per dollar factor, well, the BCC fares pretty badly (not that I think this is a very useful metric!).

In their defense, I do believe that the BCCs are reasonably seaworthy for their size, they are indeed attractive in appearance (even to my obviously prejudiced eyes), and provide a link to a previous era for folks who find that important. My other criticisms, I believe, are valid.

Cheers,

Jim