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-   -   How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ? (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f109/how-safe-are-trawlers-in-big-seas-64869.html)

Sabbatical II 25-07-2011 06:57

How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
I have only experience in sailboats at sea and none in trawlers. My preference for ocean crossing with a boat in the 40 - 45' range is a very solid sailing mono. However, I do accept that a sailing cat in this size range is also an acceptable vessel with advantages & disadvantages that distinguish it from the mono.

My question is, Can you safely cross oceans in a 40-45' trawler knowing that one day your ultimate storm will come and the trawler, I suspect is will neither float nor right itself if inverted?

Greg

DeepFrz 25-07-2011 07:01

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
How safe are trawlers in big seas? How high is a mountain, how deep are the seas?

Maybe you want to scrub this thread and ask a specific question about a specific trawler? Did you have one in mind or is this just bait?

cal40john 25-07-2011 07:06

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
This isn't the company that I remember advertising in the magazines, but there are more than one company that makes self righting ocean crossing motorboats if you don't like the other kind.

ellingmotoryachts.com

vintageray 25-07-2011 07:08

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
It might be safe if it cut loose the barge full of fuel it would have to tow in order to cross an ocean.

lorenzo b 25-07-2011 07:28

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Watch The Perfect Storm. The 100' trawler sank, the little sailboat washed up on the Jersey shore intact.

motion30 25-07-2011 07:38

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
I have no answer but can say my little 34' trawler can take Much more then I can

djmarchand 25-07-2011 07:38

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
A real blue water sailboat (one with 130+ deg of stability) set up properly is pretty near unsinkable. Sure it will roll in a Perfect Storm sea, and it will probably lose its rig, but it will right itself. All of this assumes locked hatchboards, etc.

A trawler without internal ballast will not right itself quickly. Some with internal ballast- Nordhavn and Krogen will be much less likely to go over, and when they do they can be righted by the next wave.

But no trawler is going to be as stable and safe as a sailboat with 35% of its weight in its keel.

lorenzo b 25-07-2011 07:47

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
I would add that cats are the least safe, when they go over, they stay over. Hard to understand why someone would get in a boat that has escape hatches in the lowest part of the boat.

cat man do 25-07-2011 08:03

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 737014)
I would add that cats are the least safe, when they go over, they stay over. Hard to understand why someone would get in a boat that has escape hatches in the lowest part of the boat.

More baiting?

Perhaps you can attempt to explain how a powered cat could capsize?
And then provide examples of one that actually happened?

lorenzo b 25-07-2011 08:13

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
A wave comes along and flips it over.
Are you saying it can't happen?
Surely cat are less likely the capsize, but when they do they will stay capsized.

cat man do 25-07-2011 08:21

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 737028)
A wave comes along and flips it over.
Are you saying it can't happen?

I'm saying provide some evidence of it actually happening
Made up fantasy does not interest me.

Quote:

Surely cat are less likely the capsize,
So thats a good thing right?

Quote:

but when they do they will stay capsized.
But they wont be sunk
Thats also a good thing (sunk is a bad thing)

Once again, please demonstrate how they will capsize, with examples

The first part of this article and study, where people who know what they are talking about did actual tests, may help
http://cdn.cruisersforum.com/forums/...8&d=1164328644

Jim Cate 25-07-2011 08:26

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepFrz (Post 736971)
How safe are trawlers in big seas? How high is a mountain, how deep are the seas?

Maybe you want to scrub this thread and ask a specific question about a specific trawler? Did you have one in mind or is this just bait?

Seems to me to be a reasonable query from a fairly experienced sailor about another type of ocean-going vessel with which he has no experience.

I'm in the same position -- been sailing offshore for all too many years, but have never even gone for a "day-motor" in a trawler. We are beginning to see a few trawler type motor yachts in remote anchorages these days, and I too have wondered about some of them. Some are converted fishing vessels, others are the Nordhaven type. These two genres sure look different to me, and I wonder how their stability curves compare.

I'm not ready to give up sailing yet, but it could happen someday and some data would be useful whilst contemplating the change!

Cheers,

Jim

gonesail 25-07-2011 08:35

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
the 60' coyote capsized and remained afloat .. didn't much matter cause robert plant did not survive the experience. i might add that light boats are more tender and therefore more violent and dangerous in their handling of big seas.

sabray 25-07-2011 08:57

Mike plant built a custom high tech one off named coyote. The boat was found without it's keel. Mike was lost.the sailing community lost a great person and sailor. How that tragedy has anything to do with trawlers escapes me. I

lorenzo b 25-07-2011 09:06

Re: How Sare Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Read all that fine print you sent us, it's not objective research, it's a sales pitch by someone selling boats.

ChristiGrab 25-07-2011 10:07

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
I can assure you that we were in some big seas in our trawler when crossing oceans and we never flipped. You need to pick a trawler that is truly blue water capable, though. Most trawlers aren't. A key component to being blue water capable is a properly weighted keel that will right the boat if flipped. Make sure you carefully examine the physics of the hull before making a purchase to ensure it is a truly self-righting.

Also as important is proper weight distribution when outfitted with luxuries and extra gear. For example, our dinghy is stored up top. Concerned about too much weight up there, we picked a dinghy/engine that weigh 100lbs combined. I am sure if we had an 800 lb dinghy, like most trawler owners do, we'd up the risk factor for flipping in big seas. Not that a heavy dinghy would cause a boat to flip, but better to err on the side of caution and keep the weight low.

hummingway 25-07-2011 10:16

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
If this thread is going to spend anymore time in the gutters it will disappear beneath the waves.

Stick to the topic and avoid inflammatory statements, please.

gonesail 25-07-2011 10:17

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
sorry got the name wrong .. mike plant. reason i brought it up was the conversation about power cats not being dangerous after a flip cause they stay afloat. my point was that the violent motion of a big sea does enough damage to a light boat and the crew. i would choose a medium to heavy displacement keel boat to cross oceans.

feelsgood 25-07-2011 10:21

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
We have a Colvic Watson 32 ft and have been in some pretty bad weather. I know she is a motor sailor but designed by Watson the guy that designed most of the british Lifeboats, enough said there. We have a 65hp motor that uses about 3 lts an hour for 6 knots but to cross the atlantic you would need an awfull lot of fuel this is where the sails come into their own in anything from a F4 upwards we can reach at about 60degs at 6-8 knots so decent travel times can be made. The big advantage with our boat is the size of the accommodation its HUGE plenty of room to carry 6 months food. Have a look in our profile if you want more pics I can send them.

hummingway 25-07-2011 10:38

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Here in BC both trollers and trawlers go north of Vancouver Island and into the Queen Charlotte Sound and out to face the ocean. This is an area known for its turbulence. Steep thirty foot waves are common. Most people who are cruising the inside passage hit this spot and go like stink to get to the protection of the coastal waters further north but the fisherman turn out into it.

Certainly their boats are built to take the weather. With a sailboat I've read that one of the best strategies for facing a bad storm is to batten everything down, go below and climb into a birth but with a troller/trawler you stay at the wheel and you need the engine running to climb the waves and avoid troubled. Fishermen in this area go long spells without sleep and I would think that to be a big challenge when facing a storm in the middle of an ocean passage.

Blue Stocking 25-07-2011 10:39

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Most "trawlers" are about as much a trawler, as a Bene with a yard is a square-rigger. They generally are pleasure boats with a "work-boat" appearance.
My experience with stability on real workboats is limited to an incident, for which I was not on-board, but all my crew-friends were.
65 ft wooden shrimper being used as a treasure-diving work boat. Big vertical capstan on centre mid deck, driven off engine (a big Atlas diesel), no clutch.
Hoisting a cannon with boomed-out snatch block, line gets over-ride on capstan, and boat is heaved-down until gunwale is awash. We figured later she was hove-down 70 degrees.
Chop line with an axe, and she righted so quickly that she threw some crew members over the rail, on the other side.
Picturing these type of forces should give an idea of what it takes to capsize a "real" workboat.
Jus sayin.

daddle 25-07-2011 10:44

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking (Post 737141)
Most "trawlers" are about as much a trawler, as a Bene with a yard is a square-rigger. They generally are pleasure boats with a "work-boat" appearance.

That's my general opinion as well. The working trawlers I've been on have had ballast - concrete or iron - in the bilge as well as a huge clunky engine down there. Not staterooms and a candy-a$$ Yanmar. They are unlikely to roll over easily.

CarlF 25-07-2011 11:04

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Steve Dashew's line of motor yachts are designed to handle blue water conditions. They don't look a lot like trawlers. After reading his sections on hull form, stability, glazing, propulsion, range and roll control go take another look at those trawlers.

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website


Carl

Sabbatical II 25-07-2011 14:26

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daddle (Post 737147)
That's my general opinion as well. The working trawlers I've been on have had ballast - concrete or iron - in the bilge as well as a huge clunky engine down there. Not staterooms and a candy-a$$ Yanmar. They are unlikely to roll over easily.

My point exactlly. Being the OP it was suggested that I may have been baiting. Well no, not this time. In 3 days I'm going to the Sydney Boat Show and there will be some trawlers there. Ten years ago I would have had no interest in looking at them and presumed that the only way to safely cross an ocean would be in a single hull sailing yacht. This site has helped to enlighten me to the fact that, even if a slightly different approach is needed, that it can also be safely done in a multihull and in fact there can be many advantages to the mutihull. The growing contribution from trawler owners here is interesting. I had also assumed that it would be far too expensive to cruise in a trawler but some of the financial arguments offerred by the trawler operators are compelling. Are they serious cruising boats? Certainly I have seen the workboats (trawlers) from Port Stephens & Newcastle head out in weather that I stay home in and I have for a while assumed that the work boats may have a stability curve approaching that of a sailing yacht. Even if my interest is academic I enjoy seeing the different conclusions we arrive at to solve what is basically the same problem and an open mind will help me enjoy the boat show a bit more.

Greg

sarafina 25-07-2011 14:29

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eleebana (Post 736968)
the trawler, I suspect is will neither float nor right itself if inverted?

If this is true about the trawler you are thinking about then you have sort of answered your own question I think....

Because a boat that will neither float nor right itself sounds like an unsafe option in my book...

Artif 25-07-2011 14:41

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
We had about 25 tons of ballast in our trawler, a real one, ex Danish fishing boat and she still floated a bit too high.

How do they handle weather? Check out the seas in the North sea or the Baltic which these boats go out in every day, not hove to, but working in force 9 and above. I've not seen many sail boats out playing with them.

sabray 25-07-2011 14:48

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sarafina (Post 737279)
If this is true about the trawler you are thinking about then you have sort of answered your own question I think....

Because a boat that will neither float nor right itself sounds like an unsafe option in my book...

I think we call a boat that neither floats nor will right itself a house.

Jim Cate 25-07-2011 14:57

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
I think that we most all agree that many trawler working boats are quite seaworthy, and that one of them converted to pleasure use would likely retain those characteristics.

Now, how about the ubiquitous "trawler-style" motor yachts... you know, the Grand Banks sort of vessel that is so common on coastal waters? How are they in comparison. The addition of flying bridges and big dinks on the upper decks surely compromises stability to some degree, and I wonder if anyone has stability curves for them?

A comment from a knowledgeable NA would be interesting! Bob Perry, where are you when we need you?

Finally, I have seen some big MYs out of the water, and to my untrained eye they look, well, very top heavy. Yet, they do lots of blue water miles and don't sink very often. So, I am curious...

Cheers,

Jim

Blue Stocking 25-07-2011 15:13

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
IMO, we tend to get sucked in by the Madison Ave. hype of image creating.
"Trawler" defines a work-boat appearance, heavier displacement, non-planing, fuel-sipping combination.
It is like back a few years ago when ULDBs were called sleds. Because that was what the ride was like downwind.
OTOH, my boat IS a beautiful, classic yacht. :D

markpierce 25-07-2011 15:21

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate (Post 737304)
...Now, how about the ubiquitous "trawler-style" motor yachts... you know, the Grand Banks sort of vessel that is so common on coastal waters? How are they in comparison. The addition of flying bridges and big dinks on the upper decks surely compromises stability to some degree, and I wonder if anyone has stability curves for them? ...

Recreational "trawlers" are a highly varied lot. Most are coastal cruisers and gunkholers and their relative seaworthiness widely varied. Relatively few are designed for transoceanic cruises. Same can be said of "sloops," etc.

cat man do 25-07-2011 15:23

Re: How Sare Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 737061)
Read all that fine print you sent us, it's not objective research, it's a sales pitch by someone selling boats.

It is research and evidence supporting what I say.
You on the other hand have produced nothing.

hummingway 25-07-2011 15:24

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Enough fighting. Take it outside you two.

Capt. lulz 25-07-2011 15:32

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 736991)
Watch The Perfect Storm. The 100' trawler sank, the little sailboat washed up on the Jersey shore intact.

Are you suggesting that both scenarios are equal likely?

markpierce 25-07-2011 15:33

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Although my trawler is stronger and has a lower center of gravity than nearly every other trawler of its size, it is still a coastal cruiser/gunkholer because the saloon windows are too large and more likely to breakage even though they are "industrial" grade, its gunwales are high so that water from breaking waves could weigh down the boat, and its range of 1000 miles too short.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/attachm...g?t=1311629209

lorenzo b 25-07-2011 15:36

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
My thoughts on crossing oceans in a multihull power cruiser;
without sails to help stabilize them in heavy sea they will roll, and you can not add active fins or paravanes to a multihull effectively. They require twin engines, which doubles your chances for problems, and require more fuel.They also do not have space for large fuel and water tanks.
A single hulled boat has much more space available and can be effectively stabilized.
You see power cats used mostly as ferries in coastal use because of their shallow draft and their exceptional stability in moderate seas, but rarely as ocean going vessels.

Blue Stocking 25-07-2011 15:57

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Mark,
I don't think I ever complimented you on a job well done :thumb:
Your comments are an important part of the "whole boat success" thing.
Knowing your vessels limits.
That said, I think I would feel more comfortable offshore with you and this boat, than I would with some.

Lee Jerry 25-07-2011 16:07

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cat man do (Post 737025)
More baiting?

Perhaps you can attempt to explain how a powered cat could capsize?
And then provide examples of one that actually happened?

Waves:
  • A breaking wave on the beam, regardless of intentional (poor course by skipper) or accidental (loss of power).
  • Broaching on a wave face.
Here's one and here's another, neither says how they ended up inverted though.

cat man do 25-07-2011 16:17

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Despite what Hummingaway said
Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingway (Post 737324)
Enough fighting. Take it outside you two.

I feel I need to address your comment

*Hummingway has no problem with anyone addressing anothers comments as long as attention is paid to civility

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzo b (Post 737331)
A word of caution to someone thinking of crossing oceans in a multihull power cruiser;
without sails to help stabilize them in heavy sea they will roll,

I have provide evidence done by independent testers that show a standard width multihull is far less likely to roll /capsize in a breaking beam sea than a monohull.
Sails, They will ADD to the chance of capsize in extreme conditions, not increase stability.
That is why in extreme conditions,both on mono and multi, most people reduce sail until none is up at all, NOT increase it.
Quote:

and you can not add active fins or paravanes to a multihull effectively.
Why would you need to?
Quote:

They require twin engines, which doubles your chances for problems,
Or gives you redundancy if you single engine has issues
Quote:

and require more fuel.
Multihulls generally have smaller engines and lighter weight on more efficient hullshapes.
Logically, they would use less or at least comparable amounts of fuel

Quote:

They also do not have space for large fuel and water tanks.
All depends on the boat
I can carry more fuel and water than a mates 50ft Palm Beach Monohull powerboat
I carry more fuel and water than a mates 44ft Bavaria
I cant carry as much fuel as an aircraft carrier
Quote:

A single hulled boat has much more space available
... depending on the boat
I have much more space available than my mates 50ft Palm Beach Monohull
I have much more space available than a mates 44ft Bavaria
I dont have as much space available as an aircraft carrier
Quote:

and can be effectively stabilized.
they need to be, they are inherently unstable
Quote:

You see power cats used mostly as ferries in coastal use because of their shallow draft and their exceptional stability in moderate seas, but rarely as ocean going vessels.
Except for the ones that are.

cat man do 25-07-2011 16:21

Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry (Post 737354)
Waves:
Here's one and here's another, neither says how they ended up inverted though.

A 23 and a 26 ft , narrow beamed trailerable catamaran are hardly examples of ocean going cruisers anymore then a beach Hobie cat as an example of sailing multihulls as being easily capsized and unsuitable as cruising vessels.

lorenzo b 25-07-2011 16:23

Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?
 
Mark
Nice boat. Wouldn't take much to make her ocean ready, some storm shutters, paravanes, larger scuppers, and cut down your rpm's. Beebe has some amazing graphs on rpm's and milage. Cut her down to 5 knts and you can double your range.


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