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-   -   Swedish Craftsmanship / Quality on Hallberg Rassy (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/swedish-craftsmanship-quality-on-hallberg-rassy-49117.html)

KillerBoo 26-10-2010 13:30

Swedish Craftsmanship / Quality on Hallberg Rassy
 
Donīt know if you are up to date on the latest regarding Hallberg Rassy..
Thereīs a major law suit going on in Sweden against HR. Itīs about a HR37 delivered 2008, sailed to home port and then put on the hard. Lots and lots and LOTS of construction faulties.. I know you donīt read swedish, but if you have heard of the case, some pictures may fill in the blanks for you
http://www.blekingenaturfoto.se/bat/...esentation.pdf

The case is about delamination. Spraying GRP instead of doing it by hand whilst stating its hand laid. Not using enough fibres. Not mounting the deck hardware properly etc etc etc.. And I have always held HR high.. now they wont even acknowledge their mistake but insists that itīs as it should be.
HR says this is fine.. Independant surveyors deemes it as not being seaworthy even in closed archipelagoes. Insurance companies wont insure it since it wonīt pass an inspection as regards to seaworthiness. Still HR says itīs all normal
Grrrrr

KillerBoo 26-10-2010 13:34

Verdict is expected on the 29th of oct btw

swagman 26-10-2010 13:40

Hi Killer,
Be sure to keep us posted on the outcome of the case. I am sure many others would be equally interested.
JOHN

barnakiel 26-10-2010 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerBoo (Post 548384)

Lots and lots and LOTS of construction faulties.

The case is about delamination. Spraying GRP instead of doing it by hand whilst stating its hand laid. Not using enough fibres.

It is not "lots and lots and LOTS" of construction faults.

The case IS about delamination.

I am not sure how well aware of the lamination techniques you are, but 'hand laid' laminate does not imply not using sprayed resin. (Then again why should 'hand laid' be better than any other properly executed technique is sort of beyond me - I see it as a purely marketing slogan).

HR's attitude yet to be seen. If they rejected the initial claim, there must have been some reason.

I would not jump to conclusions about HR's or elsewhere Swedish quality on the single case of a law suit. But I will be looking forward to hearing what gets found by the jury and how the issue gets resolved in the end.

Cheers,
barnie

mintyspilot 26-10-2010 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerBoo (Post 548384)
.... I know you donīt read swedish,.....

Google to the rescue!!!!

Google Translate

KillerBoo 26-10-2010 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel (Post 548397)
It is not "lots and lots and LOTS" of construction faults.

The case IS about delamination.

I am not sure how well aware of the lamination techniques you are, but 'hand laid' laminate does not imply not using sprayed resin. (Then again why should 'hand laid' be better than any other properly executed technique is sort of beyond me - I see it as a purely marketing slogan).

HR's attitude yet to be seen. If they rejected the initial claim, there must have been some reason.

I would not jump to conclusions about HR's or elsewhere Swedish quality on the single case of a law suit. But I will be looking forward to hearing what gets found by the jury and how the issue gets resolved in the end.

Cheers,
barnie

Yes its about delamination... also.
But thereīs also a lot of other -in comparison- minor faults, still left un-acknowledged by HR. And of course one cant judge an entire business/market from this, before hand, but it appears that HR has had several opportunities to correct the samller issues w/o being the least bit interested. They have chosen not to even take part in the surveys etc.
As for the hand laid vs spray technique I know no more than the avg guy, but since HR takes pride in their craftsmanship and in the contracts stating that you get a boat fully laminated by hand (and charging a "bit" extra money for this tecnique compīd to other builders) Iīd say that it of some value for the customer...

barnakiel 26-10-2010 18:42

Any well designed, field proven and well performed technique is adequate in boat building as well as in any other field of human activity.

If HR decided to make 'hand lamination' (whatever this term could in fact mean) their USP, fine. Bavaria made 'computer designed & robot assembled' theirs, fine.

This would be nice to learn one day of a boat building company with 100% success rate, yet we all know that in real life even Valiants get blisters.

b.

SurferShane 26-10-2010 19:13

It would be an obvious false and misleading conduct type case under the Trade Practices Act over here. Not to mention unfit for purpose! (Hope I am not getting too technical and/or getting my national and state legislation mixed. Bit rusty on the commercial law).

The there have been heaps of threads on here of late where people have had issues with the declining quality of various production boats. Maybe it is a bad symptom of the last economic downturn or even just pure greed?

KillerBoo 26-10-2010 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel (Post 548615)
Any well designed, field proven and well performed technique is adequate in boat building as well as in any other field of human activity.

If HR decided to make 'hand lamination' (whatever this term could in fact mean) their USP, fine. Bavaria made 'computer designed & robot assembled' theirs, fine.

This would be nice to learn one day of a boat building company with 100% success rate, yet we all know that in real life even Valiants get blisters.

b.

Oc accidents and mistakes happen.. but the idea of marketing something with a reference to "hand laid" or whatever the term is and saying its way better than the spray-on lamination. And the to put that hand laying thingie specīs in a contract, only to deliver a boat thatīs not... smells bad to me

KillerBoo 26-10-2010 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurferShane (Post 548637)
It would be an obvious false and misleading conduct type case under the Trade Practices Act over here. Not to mention unfit for purpose! (Hope I am not getting too technical and/or getting my national and state legislation mixed. Bit rusty on the commercial law).

The there have been heaps of threads on here of late where people have had issues with the declining quality of various production boats. Maybe it is a bad symptom of the last economic downturn or even just pure greed?

most ppl here, I for one, put it on the greed-account

mintyspilot 27-10-2010 05:38

It sounds like a "made on Friday afternoon" boat (except you need more than an afternoon....), but it seems to have one heck of a lot of defects. Given the money involved, you would expect this to be corrected PDQ. The reputational damage could be immense.

barnakiel 27-10-2010 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerBoo (Post 548654)
... smells bad to me

Can it be the fish? ...

;-)))

Seriously though - I think HR made a big mistake allowing for any suit. Right or wrong, fix the boat, remove the errors from the technology, and move on.

Somehow, in a country of smart people that the Swedes are, someone at HR turned out to be a halfwit.

Coincidently, if the new HR looks as it does (HR 64 - Bavaria on drugs;-) and the if quality issues are discussed, who will want to buy a HR in the future?

b.

goboatingnow 27-10-2010 17:23

Hand laid had always included the use of resin spray guns in fact I suspect there isn't a builder doing it that's not using resin delivery guns. ( much better mixing better ratios etc)

As to HR and other " quality " boats. Well I have my views what makes an oyster or a HR worth 4 x times an equivalent boat. Well it isn't the engineering that's for sure. Since the layman has nonrecourse to the build cost sheet you really can't see what you are paying for. It could be " customisation" equally a lot of pricing is Market positioning.

Dave

Sail IC 28-10-2010 00:22

This case is heavily discussed at Swedish boating forums. Most people are concerned and surprised that;
- HR's quality is not what it used to be
- HR could deliver a boat with so many faults, one very severe
- HR's way of handling the issues and lack of customer care

Its now objectively difficult to truly follow this case. Once heading to court, the owner has tried his outmost to get public oppinion to put pressure on HR to take his boat back. HR is not publically communicating as they know they could not win in the eyes of the consumers. The Swedish boating press is quiet as they don't want to be used as a lever by either of the parties.

Oct'29 the courts verdict will be announced. With it we will better know both sides of this case.

roverhi 28-10-2010 01:58

Hand laid refers to alternate layers of matt, cloth, roving, etc. The resin is probably sprayed on as it would be near impossible to deliver it to the laminate any other way.

The obverse of hand laid was a hull laid up with cloth and/or roving and chopped matt with resin sprayed on. Don't think many boat builders use chopper gun in structural parts like the hull anymore. The chopper gun is too dependent on operator technique. I bought a Morgan 35 that was laid up with roving and a chopper gun. Either the gun screwed up and didn't include the chopped matt or the operator just didn't show up for work the day one side of the hull was laid up. One side of the hull came out fine, the other side of the hull had no chopped matt in the layup. That side showed every piece of furniture and bulkhead that was laminated to the hull. Without the chop, the hull had very poor rigidity and deformed where there was a hard spot. Because of these problems most boat builders hand lay their hulls to accurately control the glass content of the layup. Even some reputable manufacturers used chopper gun layups for non structural parts like head liners.

Even with hand layup, screw ups occur if the resin gear doesn't mix the proper ratio of resin and catalyst. Know of several different manufacturers that had some UhOh's in hull layups. Repairs are quite expensive as you have to grind out the problem area and relaminate the lay up. Don't know if that is the case with this HR. Some owners just aren't going to be happy no matter what. If they've got enough money to hire a shyster lawyer, they can sue.


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