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-   -   alternative to tether (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f122/alternative-to-tether-178171.html)

sowwaninii 07-01-2017 07:46

alternative to tether
 
After revisiting my jackline/tether set-up it was apparent it would be very difficult to reboard if I went over the side. Wondering if anyone has tied something like this with padeye anchors? THis is what high-rise window washers/workers use.

3101009 - DBI Sala 8' Talon Cab-Mount Order Picker Web Self Retracting Lifeline W/ Self Locking Swiveling Snap Hook
(Similar Items Below)

DBI Sala 8' Talon Cab-Mount Order Picker Web Self Retracting Lanyard $276.00
Order
Compact, lightweight design
8 ft. of 1" nylon webbing
All metal braking system for durability
Order picker handle
Self-locking swivel snap hook with impact indicator
Designed for smooth consistent operation
Meets or exceeds all applicable industry standards including OSHA, ANSI and the stringent ANSI Z359
Talon® self retracting lifelines are engineered for reliable protection that locks when it should; won't lock when it shouldn't. The extremely lightweight design (just under three pounds!) gives you freedom of movement without compromising safety. Talon® can be connected directly to the cab of an order picker offering a convenient anchorage point.

Similar Models:

Order 3101008: with 9503175 snap hook
3101010: with 2000523 steel carabiner (3/4" gate opening)
3101011: with 2004339 aluminum hook (3/4" gate opening)
3101012: with 2007199 steel swiveling carabiner (3/4" gate opening)

Steadman Uhlich 07-01-2017 10:33

Re: alternative to tether
 
What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice with the sole intent to help and to further the discussion or answer your question. :)

What do you see as an advantage for that type of gear?
____________________

Synopsis:
From what I can see, I think that product is not well suited for use on a sailboat, and that other safety tethers specifically designed for use by sailors are a much better, safer, choice.


My Experience:
I have worn a sailing safety harness and tether and inflatable PFD for thousands of miles of ocean "blue water" sailing. I don't find them uncomfortable in either hot weather or cold weather (even when wearing foul weather gear). I have also been a MOB due to an accidental gybe/broach and have seen other sailors fall off or thrown off boats. I also witnessed two professional or very experienced sailors die in SF Bay, due to slow recovery of the MOBs, after a broach of a big boat during a race I was in (on a following boat). It can take only a few minutes in cold water for a sailor to die.

My POV:
I believe in wearing a PFD and a safety harness and tether when sailing offshore (or would inland too if on big water) or in heavy weather or single handing.

My Opinion on the Product (topic of this thread):
I don't see ANY advantage to that particular product for use on a boat, and I do see some possible reasons why it would NOT be preferable to proven designs that are specifically designed for offshore sailing.

1. That thing costs a lot of money ($276) and that almost $200 more than a very good safety tether made for ocean sailing), which can be purchased for as little as $79.

2. It weighs much more than a more typical sailing safety tether gear (this item you posted weighs almost 3 pounds)

3. It is cumbersome (large, bulky) and because of the way it is intended to be attached to a fixed hard point, would likely be left attached to a single point on deck, only allowing a maximum of 8 feet of tether length. That mechanism has to sit somewhere and if it is on the sole of a small or typical narrow cockpit (attached to a padeye) it may prove a real problem or something else on which to jam your toes or trip. It could also bang about causing wear or damage to the gel coat below it.

4. It has some kind of internal hidden mechanism that could jam, and could fail and may not be suitable for a salt water environment. Hidden parts may corrode, unseen.

5. Is that safety snap hook that would attach to a sailor suitable for one hand operation? Is it unable to be opened if twisted (does it have some kind of safety lock)? Some hooks that are designed for use with scaffolding and construction equipment are larger, bulkier, and heavier than required for sailing.

6. IF the sailor becomes a MOB and is being dragged beside the boat while tethered, it is possible to quickly (less than a minute) drown if the sailor is not oriented correctly and is being dragged face down or with water over his head. In those circumstances, it is essential to "cut loose" the tether from the body of the sailor, in order to free oneself from the boat. There are also other (rare) instances (e.g. Capsized boat with sailor trapped below a sail.) when it is essential for the sailor to "cut loose" from the tether. Will this item allow that to happen quickly and easily?

In sum, from what I can see, I think that product is not well suited for use on a sailboat, and that other safety tethers specifically designed for use by sailors are a much better, safer, choice.

I hope you find this helpful. If you want my suggestion for an appropriate safety tether I do recommend, and why, I will post that upon request.

Suijin 07-01-2017 11:08

Re: alternative to tether
 
I agree with Steady on every point, which were all ready percolating in my head as I read your proposal without seeing his response.

It's just not a good idea. Not designed for marine use, prone to mechanical failure, etc.

Years and years ago I went over the side, forward of the mast, wearing a harness and tether, during a partial broach on a spinnaker run during an offshore race in 20 knots of wind. I was knocked off the boat by another crew member who lost his footing, and I was very lucky to essentially be washed up back onto the side deck about 10 seconds later as the crew got control of the boat and boat oscillated. But those few seconds of being dragged through the water at 10 knots made quite the impression on me and I have been, needless to say, particularly cautious about deck work offshore since that day. I would not liked to have entrusted my life to some 3 lb. possibly corroded bulky mechanical yo yo.

Clip in to the centerline of the boat whenever possible. Use a double tether and use it intelligently. Travel along side deck jack lines with the understanding that no matter how taut they are they are a less than ideal compromise and you should spend as little time hooked into them as possible if not also hooked into something else closer to the centerline.

StuM 07-01-2017 13:10

Re: alternative to tether
 
Just to add one more voice. Steady and Suijin are correct. :thumb:

grantmc 07-01-2017 13:26

Re: alternative to tether
 
Sounded much like an advert to me, with order numbers and the like.

Sailsarefull 25-03-2017 16:52

Re: alternative to tether
 
Steadyhand, Thank you so much for an experienced POV. I recently bought a boat and am outfitting it for the safety level I believe is necessary for me to single-hand. Your POV was especially helpful in that it confirmed that I am making the right decisions. Bow-stern jacklines, double-tethers specifically designed for offshore, heavy weather sailing.
One question-do you recommend single jacklines on boat center or double down each side? I like center because my preference is if/when I get knocked down, I don't go overboard. Center keeps me closer to center of boat where the side jacklines allow for going over. Thank you again. John

Sailsarefull 25-03-2017 16:55

Re: alternative to tether
 
Suijin, Just read your post and it answered my question to Steadyhand. My thought was a centerline jackline as I just would rather reduce the possibility of going over in the first place. I have a double-tether (3ft-6ft), very good harnesses, both built specifically for offshore, heavy weather sailing. Thanks again for the voice of experience.

UNCIVILIZED 25-03-2017 17:11

Re: alternative to tether
 
It's a wise course of action to place your jacklines so as to minimize the possible locations that you can fall over even when tethered. And the corollary to this is that if you make your own harness tethers, you can customize their lengths to be as short as possible & still allow you to work the boat. It's quite easy to splice up a couple using lengths of Dyneema cordage, & the appropriate hooks/shackles. And, along with their other perks, they're cheaper to make, & are super UV resistant, & super strong.


Edit: They're also super light weight, & doubly so in the rain & foul weather, as Spectra doesn't absorb water. Unlike Nylon.

zeehag 25-03-2017 17:25

Re: alternative to tether
 
my question to the folks believing tethers are for reboarding a boat you have fallen off--- why do you think that???
tethers are to PREVENT overboard activities while underway. not for reboarding.
you go over while underway you die.
tethers are not to reach over side of boat so as to keep you on the boat.
tether prevents death when used properly.

Snore 25-03-2017 18:21

Re: alternative to tether
 
Add one for down the center jack line. I run from the port or starboard bow cleat to the opposing cabin top winch. At the point where the jack line goes past the mast there is a 3/8" securing the jack line to the mast. The role of the line is not to take full load, only to keep the jack line from sagging under load.

There is a second jack line athwart ship at the helm for the helmsman to clip onto.

Sea Dreaming 25-03-2017 18:29

Re: alternative to tether
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeehag (Post 2356229)
my question to the folks believing tethers are for reboarding a boat you have fallen off--- why do you think that???
tethers are to PREVENT overboard activities while underway. not for reboarding.
you go over while underway you die.
tethers are not to reach over side of boat so as to keep you on the boat.
tether prevents death when used properly.

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

thinwater 25-03-2017 20:02

Re: alternative to tether
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED (Post 2356217)
... It's quite easy to splice up a couple using lengths of Dyneema cordage, & the appropriate hooks/shackles. And, along with their other perks, they're cheaper to make, & are super UV resistant, & super strong.


Edit: They're also super light weight, & doubly so in the rain & foul weather, as Spectra doesn't absorb water. Unlike Nylon.

No. Very dangerous and forbidden by sailing standards.

Try this. Splice a Dyneema tether, attach it to a tree, attach the other end to your harness, and then take a run at it, backwards, as though stumbled down the deck or got hit by a wave. If you give it a good try you have an excellent chance of ending up in the hospital with a cracked rib or spine injury. Try it slowly, and report back. I have tried this test.

Dyneema will NOT pass any World Sailing (formerly ISAF) or ISO standard and is forbidden by all racing standards for tethers. It is dangerous.

Sorry, that was harsh, but I have tested Dyneema for this, and the impact loads were well in excess of military and UIAA standards. They can hurt someone badly. Tethers and jacklines demand well thought out engineering design.

thinwater 25-03-2017 20:07

Re: alternative to tether
 
I get that center jacklines are the new forum wisdom, but does anyone have personal knowledge of a sailor that fell off to windward, other than being struck by the boom?

My understanding is that all falls are to leeward, because of heel. I have never read of windward fall. I know the side of the cabin may feel dangerous to you, but is it in actual practice? I don't think the numbers bear this out.

Please enlighten me/us. Otherwise, the jacklines should be to windward, better protecting against the hazard.

I am a believe in separate workstation clipping points. Separate issue.

Paul Elliott 25-03-2017 20:46

Re: alternative to tether
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater (Post 2356304)
I get that center jacklines are the new forum wisdom, but does anyone have personal knowledge of a sailor that fell off to windward, other than being struck by the boom?

My understanding is that all falls are to leeward, because of heel. I have never read of windward fall. I know the side of the cabin may feel dangerous to you, but is it in actual practice? I don't think the numbers bear this out.

Please enlighten me/us. Otherwise, the jacklines should be to windward, better protecting against the hazard.

I am a believe in separate workstation clipping points. Separate issue.

I don't have a centerline jackline, but we've seen and had wild "death roll" spinnaker wipeouts where windward and leeward trade sides several times before the eventual crash.

UNCIVILIZED 26-03-2017 00:24

Re: alternative to tether
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater (Post 2356303)
No. Very dangerous and forbidden by sailing standards.
Do you happen to have a copy of, or a link to the current standards for; harnesses, tethers, & jacklines? ISO 12401 I believe it is. Is this the one to which you're referring? As everywhere I've attempted to look up & read said standard(s) wants $200+ for a copy of it/to be able to see what the "standards" (set by whom one wonders) are.

Try this. Splice a Dyneema tether, attach it to a tree, attach the other end to your harness, and then take a run at it, backwards, as though stumbled down the deck or got hit by a wave. If you give it a good try you have an excellent chance of ending up in the hospital with a cracked rib or spine injury. Try it slowly, and report back. I have tried this test.
I'll see what I can do on this..Though "taking a run at it" could prove difficult, as the last couple of tethers I spliced had legs which were about 2', & 4' long. So there's purposefully not enough length to them to be able to be thrown far should such happen.

I've more than a passing familiarity with shock loads created by falling when using various categories of safety gear. So the principle isn't new, nor news to me. Including using; climbing harnesses, various saiing safety harnesses, military "rigger's belts", etc.

Part of my disenfranchisement with many/most of the currently "approved" tethers has to do with their built in features which directly oppose many safety issues that showed up in their testing by the various sailing safety, & governing bodies. One's which have been known issues for well over 3 decades, when I first began studying such issues.

For example, tethers which cannot be released at the wearer's end. Let alone released at the wearer's end under load. The sort of thing which can keep you trapped underneath of something, or give you zero recourse if being drag drowned.

Dyneema will NOT pass any World Sailing (formerly ISAF) or ISO standard and is forbidden by all racing standards for tethers. It is dangerous.
Due to issues with; shockloads harming crew, shock loads destroying harnesses, problems with quality control, other? Basically, why? According to whom? And as a result of what unbiased testing?

Sorry, that was harsh, but I have tested Dyneema for this, and the impact loads were well in excess of military and UIAA standards. They can hurt someone badly. Tethers and jacklines demand well thought out engineering design.

I've taken a few falls on Kevlar, amongst other materials, so I'm familiar with many of the issues. Though it would be interesting to read the current standards. The thing is though, many of the current standards are actually based on information which is quite ancient, & or that is flat out wrong, as well as dangerous.

(My) personal opinions aside, there's a lot of gear & training out there which is flat out wrong, based on ancient precepts, & or, dangerous. As, for example, there's plenty of approved safety gear which falls into conflict with concepts & testing which was known & accepted decades ago. Yet the agendas still get pushed. Much of the time by personell who've never tried out the gear or concepts personally. And I say these things based on a fair amouont of professional experience in these areas.

May I be wrong about the tethers issue? Certainly. But I'd surely like to know exactly why. Including the testing involved in reaching said conclusions. Done by whom. How. Real world reports on same. Etcetera, etcetera.


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