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-   -   Raymarine night vision, users? (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/raymarine-night-vision-users-176963.html)

TJ D 10-12-2016 13:47

Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Hi Forum,

We just noticed that the price on the cheapo raymarine night vision monocular has come down enough for us to consider getting one.

Has anybody used one in the real world? Is it worth $600? I think that if it worked well, it would add a lot of confidence to night time approaches, but only if it works well...

I'd appreciate some thoughts.

TJ

UNCIVILIZED 10-12-2016 14:05

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
What unit specifically are you looking at? What gen? Links?

TJ D 10-12-2016 14:12

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Well, it's the Raymarine Ocean Scout TK, 482GBP. Most of them are closer to 2 grand, and that's more than I'm willing to pay, but the cheapie, if it works, would be in the budget.

TJ

crabcake 10-12-2016 14:18

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
User Review here

TJ D 10-12-2016 14:27

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
I've seen the Amazon reviews, but they're not really useful, all over the map and not really from sailors.

I was hoping for a person or two who's used one of these low-cost ones in a sailing environment.

Thanks, though.

TJ

Dirk Williams 10-12-2016 15:54

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Flir, units are IR, not night vision. Huge difference. That unit suggested is bottom of the barrel. Not real effective.

NODs, are very practical. Ive use mine on my boat often at night. A decent set of pvs14s is going to run you 3400.00 autogyrated high end units.

probably pick up a set of pvs 7 for,2500.00 those are the two into one units. Old school, but practical,for boat work.

TNVC.com is where I shop. Have a look.,

Dirk

StuM 10-12-2016 17:34

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Williams (Post 2277229)
Flir, units are IR, not night vision. Huge difference. That unit suggested is bottom of the barrel. Not real effective.

Correction:
IR units are one type of "night vision" technology. They have different attributes than the other common "night vision" technology: "image intensification".

Whether a particular unit is "effective" depends on your intended use.

How exactly does TJ D plan to use it?

seamountie 10-12-2016 17:51

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Its a differance in which part of infared you are looking at. Most light amplification systems see into the near infrared, as do a lot of cameras. FLIR detects far infrared, or heat. Light amplification sees reflected light, and can only be used in low light, lest you damage the amplification electronics. FLIR can be used any time. You could use it on a bright windy day to spot a MOB. But far infrared is blocked by normal glass & plexi, so you can't use it through you windshield, but NV (light amplification Night Vision) can be used through glass.

I am certain you veterans can correct any tech errors, but thats the differance in a nutshell.

Sidney777 10-12-2016 17:56

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Used to call em different Generation. Russian ones were the cheapest. Try pawn shop
Cash America pawn(I think) has a 30day return

Dirk Williams 10-12-2016 19:44

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
I can live with that " another kind" of night vision. What IR does is show heat trace.

I was involved in the recent past in T&E on high end IR sniper rifle scopes. We launched roughly 200/400 rounds at targets out to 700y. What we learned is simply this.

The IR technology is impressive. Theirs and up side and a down side. I was involved In Summer time, night time shooting. Long story short the scopes tested were stand along version which sat on a pictinny in front of the existing mounted optics.

These IR units were used on suppressed rifles and non suppressed rifles. The day time temps were 80 ish and, waited until 21:00 24:00 to shoot.

We discovered that EVERYTHING had a heat signature , the road, the sand, the trees and the rocks. Everything. We couple view out to our scopes ranges clearly. Was very impressive.

What learned that seeing wasn't the problem but interpreting exactly what we were seeing was difficult. An example would be 800y across the range we could clearly see everything, make out the trees, the roads, an old shoot house, rocks.

What we were not able to define a man standing still. The mans heat blended into the surrounding items basically heat on heat.

We tried this at 500 then 400 then 300 then 250. We could finally see movement at roughly 250 y. However we could only see the movement, and not able to,determine if it was human, or an animal.

at 200y, and in. we could clearly see our test subjects movement, his physical description. Was clearly that of a man at those shorter distances. If the man stopped movement, he was again lost in all the other heat signatures.

The consensuous of us shooters was , that the IR scope was not practical for summer night shooting. Everything was a blend of heat signature. I suppose one could be taught to interpret the different colors of red and be effective.

However I think on water, and in the winter the outcome would have been favorable different.

Another series of test,I was involved in was with Night vision using a PVS-22 and then a PVS-27 night scope was entirely different. Again these NODS site on a pictinny rail in front of the rifles existing scope, often with a rubber boot connecting the objective end of the scope" big end" to the sighting side of the NODs.

Long story short, we could consistently observer, and engage steel ar 500 targets to roughly 700y. We could not see actual impact, however we could hear the bullet impact the steel.

A pvs 22 nod gen III can be purchased here in the US, for roughly 2500.oo and a pvs 27, gen III in the 3000.00 range.

Now to a more practical nod unit. The pvs 14 is what you see our troops using. They can be used over one eye, or can be paired and used with both eyes.

I happen to own 4 pvs14 gen IIIs, and a couple sets of older pvs -7s, I, guessing gen II, again their the two into one lense set up. I have used this kind of nod for at least 15 years, almost nightly while at work.

I have used pvs14s fairly often on my sailboat. They gather existing light to amplify. Are green when looking thru and are quiet effective out to roughly 1000 y, for seeing movement, and determining if it's human or animal.

These pvs 14s are mounted on rifles aft of your optic, I use red dot sights, and mount the nod, on a QD device behind the T-1.

Simple quick. At sea, one can mount the nods device to a " catchers mask" style set up, or into a helmet using a J arm, actually the mask uses a J arm as well.

the 14s are more expensive, as their a super lite, super easy nod and high quality units. All my pvs 14s have a second IR switch that illuminates better in say a house or room when entering.

If I were advising you, I,would suggest not wasting your money on Russian garbage. Anything US made and genII or better is pretty darned slick.

TNVC.com is a place for purchasing sourcing some of this high level gear. And lastly they won't sell to,you if your outside the us. Some sort of federal rules. There are alway ways around the rules.

Hope this helps.

Dirk

TJ D 11-12-2016 03:50

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Hi guys,

Good info. I know the military literally live and die by this stuff, so to the military guys, thanks.

Stu, to your question- I'm looking at something that's going to work mostly close-in. Think approaching a harbor at night, it's pretty much radar in, using the plotter as reference.

But, at some point, you sort of have to go to visual mode. It's for this last little bit of an approach that I see this thing coming into its own.

I'll probably take a look at some surplus stuff and see what's on offer. We have an address in the US, so we can ship there. I'll have to see if the Brits would give me any trouble flying in with it. l was recently out hunting vermin at night with a buddy in Texas, and his $400 IR scope was pretty good. If that thing would stand up to the elements, I would consider a hunter's model as well.

I guess the bottom line is that we probably wouldn't be asking terribly much of this device, so the low cost one if really the only reason my interest was triggered.

Thanks, TJ

a64pilot 11-12-2016 09:53

Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Having flown many hours with both Goggles ( light intensification) and FLIR, unless you have serious money to spend, get a good searchlight.
You have no need to be covert, so why not light up the night?

Sunsetrider 11-12-2016 10:21

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
I just got these binoculars for $429 at Amazon. I haven't had the opportunity to really try out the night vision, but in other respects they are pretty amazing - you can monitor day/night views on your ipad live, for example.

https://www.amazon.com/ATN-BinoX-Bin...s=atn+binox+hd

Omega46 11-12-2016 10:31

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
What about Raymarine camera?

Sidney777 11-12-2016 10:37

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
I traveled @3000 on 3 river trips in sailboat and the Fog, or just mist, fowls up seeing with search light. Also, blinding your forward vision when you are in stern of boat (sometimes). You sometimes get stuck motoring at night because you can't find a place to anchor,or anchor out of way of 200ft barges. Binoculars helped before it got too dark. --un believable darkness in remote areas. Would love night vision.

sailon46 11-12-2016 10:42

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Used my Ocean View Tech night vision with its 5" screen set me back 5k in st Vincent Dominica and de Hais in Guadeloupe night approaches overcast and could see cans. Dinghies with no lights derelict boats and boat boys with no lights coming for a hand out. Spend the money if you plan to sail at night.
Ernie on the Mary Jane

BenFranklyn 11-12-2016 10:51

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
TJ,

I did exactly what you are asking about.

2 years ago I picked up FLIR Scout PS32 infrared night vision scope.
Great little piece of technology which worked quite well where I live in the desert southwest. I have the "red" option which allows the hottest item on the screen to come up red.

Thought this would be a great way to see a MOB or get another view when coming into port. When looking at my house I can see where the heat is leaking out and when viewing a field can easily see small animals that are close in. It even works when viewing an overhead aircraft at high altitude. the exhaust plume looking like a long red swash in the sky.

Unfortunately, what it couldn't seem to do is see through moisture in even moderate amounts. I tried several time, in conditions I would have thought the device should work in, only to see a mottled grey screen with no definition of anything recognizable. Have completely given up on even having it on-board.

I recommend you go to a photomultiplier tube type night vision system as they do work better in a high humidity environment. But do read up on the export control laws which relate to both of these devices. Unfortunately the really good stuff cannot be exported which does not necessarily mean you can't have it on-board your boat outside the US. You need to read up on this if your going to take such a device on board an international flight and you could be considered as having exported it. The FLIR unit I had was NOT subject to export control as it operated a 9 HZ. The better units operate in the 30 to 60 HZ range and are restricted. Here is a site where you can see what is restricted in the FLIR product line

Export Information for FLIR Systems Products

The Photomultiplier devices are also export control so give them a careful read before venturing forth outside the US.

Best of luck,

Ben

Training Wheels 11-12-2016 11:13

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
When they say export is restricted, are they referring only to shipping to sell, or is transporting on a boat included? Sounds like having it on your own boat is okay and doesn't require any permits?

Captndave1 11-12-2016 11:30

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
FLIR sells a single for around five hundred dollars, haven't tried one, but for a boat at night makes a lot of sense.
I have a FLIR version that West sells for $250. and attaches to iPhone, works very well, I can see bouys, people in water etc easily at several hundred feet. I really don't need any more capability than that.

TJ D 11-12-2016 11:37

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot (Post 2277676)
Having flown many hours with both Goggles ( light intensification) and FLIR, unless you have serious money to spend, get a good searchlight.
You have no need to be covert, so why not light up the night?

Well, a searchlight has one big disadvantage over one of these things, namely way too much reflected light off of precipitation, and you have to be really careful not to light up your own boat and wreck your night vision.

But, the point's well taken, maybe the cheap stuff doesn't work very well. That's what I'm trying to determine. Some of the stuff that's recommended here is over $5000 bucks, and that's just not an amount that I'm willing to spend. $500, sure, but if it's a waste, I'll just carry on as in the past.

Or, maybe I'll get one for Christmas from the wife (she's looking for ideas), and I'll let you all know how well it works. The pricing is sure attractive on this new one.

TJ

TJ D 11-12-2016 11:43

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BenFranklyn (Post 2277739)
TJ,

I did exactly what you are asking about.

2 years ago I picked up FLIR Scout PS32 infrared night vision scope.
Great little piece of technology which worked quite well where I live in the desert southwest. I have the "red" option which allows the hottest item on the screen to come up red.

Thought this would be a great way to see a MOB or get another view when coming into port. When looking at my house I can see where the heat is leaking out and when viewing a field can easily see small animals that are close in. It even works when viewing an overhead aircraft at high altitude. the exhaust plume looking like a long red swash in the sky.

Unfortunately, what it couldn't seem to do is see through moisture in even moderate amounts. I tried several time, in conditions I would have thought the device should work in, only to see a mottled grey screen with no definition of anything recognizable. Have completely given up on even having it on-board.

I recommend you go to a photomultiplier tube type night vision system as they do work better in a high humidity environment. But do read up on the export control laws which relate to both of these devices. Unfortunately the really good stuff cannot be exported which does not necessarily mean you can't have it on-board your boat outside the US. You need to read up on this if your going to take such a device on board an international flight and you could be considered as having exported it. The FLIR unit I had was NOT subject to export control as it operated a 9 HZ. The better units operate in the 30 to 60 HZ range and are restricted. Here is a site where you can see what is restricted in the FLIR product line

Export Information for FLIR Systems Products

The Photomultiplier devices are also export control so give them a careful read before venturing forth outside the US.

Best of luck,

Ben


Hi Ben, thanks. The lack of functionality in moisture is interesting. We sail in places with fog/mist frequently. It would be a shame if that made the thing useless.

We would buy it locally here in the UK anyway, and once it's on board as ship's equipment, I don't think that we will have any import issues in any of the places we sail.

TJ

BenFranklyn 11-12-2016 12:02

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Export control only deals with a purchase of restricted materials inside the US and being exported outside the US.

If you buy it in the UK and it was made in the US I don't think there is anything to be concerned about. As a US citizen what you don't want to have happen is have a restricted item in your luggage and have it found. People go to jail of this stuff on a regular basis. When I travel with my FLIR unit I have the paper that FLIR provides that states the unit is exempt form export control.

If in doubt, read the regs, if you can figure them out congratulations your a f'n genius.

Ben

a64pilot 11-12-2016 16:19

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
It's called ITAR, and I doubt any consumer grade stuff is subject to ITAR.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...ms_Regulations

BenFranklyn 11-12-2016 18:25

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Unfortunately it is. You can check out the issue on the referenced site I gave which will show which units are subject to it and which ones are not. I believe only 9Hz FLIR units are free of restrictions. Night vision can only be exported in the over gen 1 and 2 versions without applying for an export permit.

DO NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY.

Its a serious problem to be caught trying to export a restricted item without a proper permit. READ THE DAMN REGS!!

Divevac 12-12-2016 08:50

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Great answers.

I'm military aircrew using an articulating IR camera operating from P3 aircraft in the Gulf of Alaska and Arctic Ocean. You mention close in work? Google FlirOne - for Apple and android phones. I've just ordered mine for my Samsung. Should help on our transat from Newfoundland to the Azores and Gibralter next year.

donradcliffe 12-12-2016 09:35

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Has anyone used these devices on a bobbing boat? What is the field of view vs 7x50 binoculars? I would be leery of getting any results at all if the field of view wasn't large enough.

TJ D 12-12-2016 09:58

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
That was also my goal in the post, learning from folks who had used them on small boats. It seems that not too many sailors are using them yet, but there was one fellow who posted earlier who liked his. But he didn't have the cheapie.

TJ D 12-12-2016 10:04

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Divevac (Post 2278354)
Great answers.

I'm military aircrew using an articulating IR camera operating from P3 aircraft in the Gulf of Alaska and Arctic Ocean. You mention close in work? Google FlirOne - for Apple and android phones. I've just ordered mine for my Samsung. Should help on our transat from Newfoundland to the Azores and Gibralter next year.


Enjoy the trip. We spent part of the last 2 summers in Newfoundland, and then crossed from St. John's to Ireland this past August. If you can carve out the time to spend some time cruising 'the rock', it's really spectacular there, and some of the most friendly folks on earth. One of our favorite cruising grounds for sure.

St. John's has good facilities for stocking up, but the commercial harbor leaves a bit to be desired. It's not terrible, but it's sort of dirty and noisy, and you have to lie against big 'ol tractor tires. There is a float toward the N. end of the harbor, but it was full of local boats in '15, and removed in '16 for some construction. Perhaps it will be there when you arrive.

We're too deep to get into Quidi Vidi, but If your draft allows, that's supposed to be quite a bit quieter.

TJ

Omega46 12-12-2016 10:23

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
Is Raymarine COM100 any good.
The problem I have on my sail boat when I have my genova 145% open and boat is 25 degree, I do not see anything on opposite side of boat tack and probably everybody have the same problem.
I can cut a window in sail, but I am thinking to install COM100 to get some info on black spot. Did anybody using this technical ability of camera?
At night we are blind on both side. Ones I was going from Hell Gate down East river and none of the buy was lite. Was not pleasant.

jkindredpdx 13-12-2016 11:45

Re: Raymarine night vision, users?
 
FLIR owns RayMarine... Their technology can be ITAR or Department of Commerce controlled. Controlled product should be clearly labeled. IMO, there is no comparison between "night vision" and IR. Low light collects and amplifies ambient light, IR senses heat. Military uses it to see footprints in the sand, Coast Guard uses it for search and rescue, firemen use it to sense heat on the other side of a wall, BMW offers them as an option to spot animals or pedestrians ~300m (?) down the road.

IR doesn't see through glass or sails, so it would need to be held or mounted forward.
Hunting & Outdoor | FLIR Systems
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