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ssullivan 25-07-2008 04:02

Photo: Why I Dislike Mooring Fields
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a photo showing why I dislike mooring fields so much.

This was once a protected anchorage. Now, there is an 80 year wait to get a mooring here - no joke - that's what the estimated time is to get a mooring in this harbor, according to the municipality that governs them.

These people have made it onto the list through political contributions, bribes, luck of having a grandfather that was into sailing, etc...

So all these fortunate people have moorings, BUT... look closely at the picture! How many of them are actually USING the mooring they keep?

They choked up a perfectly good anchorage full of moorings and most are empty!

This is high sailing season here. All the boats are launched and in the water, yet look at this mooring field.

This is also a photo taken on a week day, at 6AM. Nobody is "out sailing for the day." These moorings have been empty for the whole season.

I count 15 empty moorings and 12 boats!! These 12 boats could have easily been moored over in a corner and left some more room available to anchor in. What a waste.

Now why can't I just take one of these moorings if they aren't even being used, and they take up a perfectly good anchorage?

Harbormasters should remove moorings that aren't used for the season and allow people to anchor.

Pblais 25-07-2008 04:20

This seems to be the second mooring thread you've started. We really don't want to go back to that again.

You appear a little bit stressed. Welcome to the "should have had a grandfather that sailed" club. Lot's of room so we will all move over.

You might want to look at this:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...off-17410.html

Oil spills are a much lighter subject.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 04:21

Na... the other thread was an anchoring thread! ha ha :)

I'm not stressed or anything. I think it's a good idea to point out problems in society when you see them.

Keeps people thinking and questioning - I hope.

There is a lack of that these days.

And yes... we don't want to go back to the "anchoring ethics" thread. While this thread is similar, it isn't the same thing at all. It's about us (cruisers and liveaboards) losing anchoring spots to mooring fields - fields that are off limits to us and aren't even being used by the people who have them.

That is an injustice.

Pelagic 25-07-2008 04:26

Hi Sean,
I remember a few years ago when I chartered a sailboat in Denmark…. they had a really nice system at all the marinas where a RED card at a slip meant the owner was coming back that day and you couldn’t tie up.

A Green card meant that the owner was away and you could tie up, then see the dockmaster who would give you the date the owner would return, sometimes shifting you to another slip to harmonize the dates.

Could that system not be implemented with established mooring fields?

bobnlesley 25-07-2008 04:28

...Harbormasters should remove moorings that aren't used for the season and allow people to anchor...

But where's the profit in that?

We're now in Greece which is OK, but I remember NE Spain in particular had moorings filling every available sheltered bay and cove. What made it even more frustrating was that a) they were all empty and b) they weren't heavy enough to use. It appeared that they were solely used on Saturday & Sunday afternoons, when the small local motorboats left their marina berths for a five mile passage, picnic stop on these buoys and return at dusk.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelagic (Post 186367)
Hi Sean,
I remember a few years ago when I chartered a sailboat in Denmark…. they had a really nice system at all the marinas where a RED card at a slip meant the owner was coming back that day and you couldn’t tie up.

A Green card meant that the owner was away and you could tie up, then see the dockmaster who would give you the date the owner would return, sometimes shifting you to another slip to harmonize the dates.

Could that system not be implemented with established mooring fields?

Seems like a fine system to me. :)

Any system that would make use of an anchorage that is being wasted on a bunch of floating balls would be welcome news...

waterworldly 25-07-2008 04:37

Perhaps the moorings are held by the owners of the homes on the cove, who have them for visiting yachts of friends. Where I grew up, it was not uncommon to keep one for visitors even if you didn't own a yacht that needed one, but didn't have enough dock space at your own house for the visitors. Remember how many people go up to New England in the summertime to visit. THis is reciprocated in the southern states in the Winter.

GordMay 25-07-2008 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssullivan (Post 186364)
... It's about us (cruisers and liveaboards) losing anchoring spots to mooring fields - fields that are off limits to us and aren't even being used by the people who have them.
That is an injustice.

Isn’t this the essential element of private property rights ; wherein my right to own and/or use something supersedes and vitiates your and everyone else’s right to own or use that thing.

Traditional principles of property rights include:
1. control of the use of the property
2. the right to any benefit from the property
3. a right to transfer or sell the property
4. a right to exclude others from the property.

See the 5TH and 14TH Amendments to your Constitution.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay (Post 186374)
Isn’t this the essential element of private property rights ; wherein my right to own and/or use something supersedes and vitiates your and everyone else’s right to own or use that thing.

Traditional principles of property rights include:
1. control of the use of the property
2. the right to any benefit from the property
3. a right to transfer or sell the property
4. a right to exclude others from the property.

See the 5TH and 14TH Amendments to your Constitution.

Yes, it is, Gord.

There is just one little twist. I cannot option to purchase any of these moorings. I would gladly do so, but they are on a "first come, first serve" basis - which created an 80 year wait for one.

I don't have the answers. I wish I did.

The post is here though... so maybe others can come up with something or at least know about this in advance if they try to cruise or live aboard. It is happening in a lot of places. It's all fine and dandy to talk about property rights and taxes, profits and land owners.

However, in the end... it means that many people will no longer be able to cruise and live aboard. If you have to pay for a dock, or move to another area where you rent a $35/night rental mooring, how will many of the current cruisers or the dreamers be able to afford to do what we all talk about on this board?

Granted, there are many on here who are well off, but there are probably just as many (if not more) who will have to watch the kitty while cruising, carefully spending money on repairs and food and whatnot.

I worry that cruising (as you knew it) will not be available to people in the future. Every new mooring field that goes into an anchorage brings us closer and closer to that point where cruising will cost $35/night, or approx $1000/mo more than it does now.

This will keep *many* of the people on this board from being able to do it.

I write because I care about the future of cruising. :)

jzk 25-07-2008 05:17

Westrec
 
Here in Chicago, we have Westrec managed marinas. If a boat is gone for a bit, the harbormaster will put a transient on your mooring.

scallywag 25-07-2008 05:21

Property Rights--The State of Florida owns all submerged land. I was told marinas are taxed on the land under their docks. The city of St. Augustine is talking about placing a mooring field north and south of the Bridge of Lions.
John

GordMay 25-07-2008 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssullivan (Post 186378)
Yes, it is, Gord.
There is just one little twist. I cannot option to purchase any of these moorings. I would gladly do so, but they are on a "first come, first serve" basis - which created an 80 year wait for one.

I can empathize with your anguish, as a similar thing happened to me.
I was only about 382 years too late to beat Peter Minuit to an excellent land deal ($26 for a nice little island). The greedy #%*&/x* didn’t even reserve a small parcel for my eventual use. ;)

The first-come owners may have (3) a right to transfer or sell the property.

jzk 25-07-2008 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssullivan (Post 186378)
I cannot option to purchase any of these moorings.....I worry that cruising (as you knew it) will not be available to people in the future. Every new mooring field that goes into an anchorage brings us closer and closer to that point where cruising will cost $35/night, or approx $1000/mo more than it does now.

A prudent cruiser will find that there are thousands of places left in this world to anchor. The more crowded cities get with boats means the more economical boating will be for the rest of us. One of the reasons you got such a great deal on your boat is the economy of scale.

Perhaps there is a way to "purchase" the right to use the mooring from one of those that aren't using it? Our marinas don't allow this as they use the vacant spots for transients, but it sounds as if yours doesn't. Here in Chicago one might buy a mooring without even having a boat just to get in line for a slip for next year. Perhaps those people plan on having a boat "next year" but don't want to wait 80 years again, so they keep their mooring vacant.

psteele235 25-07-2008 05:34

Here's a suggestion: Put a "Use My Mooring" thread up so when those who have moorings know they will be away they can post to CF members and privately arrange to allow another member to use that mooring.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by psteele235 (Post 186390)
Here's a suggestion: Put a "Use My Mooring" thread up so when those who have moorings know they will be away they can post to CF members and privately arrange to allow another member to use that mooring.

There we go! (the thread is working)

Patrick is thinking and this is another good idea. A little database of moorings in use or not in use would be very helpful to cruisers.

GordMay 25-07-2008 05:41

Two bodies cannot occupy the same place at the same time.

Unfortunately, a society in which all property is private renders the propertyless completely dependent on those who own property.

An all-private (capitalist) system of property ownership can be oppressive, just as an all-public (communist) one can be; but a system that allows networks of private and public ownership (socialist commonwealth) offers the greatest scope for individual freedom and the common welfare.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzk (Post 186387)
A prudent cruiser will find that there are thousands of places left in this world to anchor. The more crowded cities get with boats means the more economical boating will be for the rest of us. One of the reasons you got such a great deal on your boat is the economy of scale.

Perhaps there is a way to "purchase" the right to use the mooring from one of those that aren't using it? Our marinas don't allow this as they use the vacant spots for transients, but it sounds as if yours doesn't. Here in Chicago one might buy a mooring without even having a boat just to get in line for a slip for next year. Perhaps those people plan on having a boat "next year" but don't want to wait 80 years again, so they keep their mooring vacant.

I think your 2nd paragraph sums up the situation where I am now. People intend on using the mooring "someday", but never do. There is no marina in this spot. It's all privately owned moorings, as are the majority of them in New England. I sure would love to purchase the right to use one... would be nice.

I am not sure about the paragraph about the prudent cruiser though. As I see anchorage after anchorage (not this current one in the photo - it's been filled in for years) being filled in with moorings, just where will you cruise that is available to anchor?

It's not only the USA - Europe has the same issues as do some islands.

jzk 25-07-2008 05:49

If it wasn't for capitalism and private property rights, "cruising" would consist of watching the royalty go on exploration missions in their wooden tallships.

Now, anyone can go cruising. Our first sailboat was a Chrysler 26, and I would sail that to the bahamas without any concern. We paid 5k for it.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay (Post 186393)
An all-private (capitalist) system of property ownership can be oppressive, just as an all-public (communist) one can be; but a system that allows networks of private and public ownership (socialist commonwealth) offers the greatest scope for individual freedom and the common welfare.


Gord, I'm writing you in for president of my country! :) (if you're running under the socialist commonwealth theme)

I may have a little tinkering to do with our constitution to get a Canadian citizen in office, but it's worth a try.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzk (Post 186397)
If it wasn't for capitalism and private property rights, "cruising" would consist of watching the royalty go on exploration missions in their wooden tallships.

Now, anyone can go cruising. Our first sailboat was a Chrysler 26, and I would sail that to the bahamas without any concern. We paid 5k for it.

But if the Bahamas were filled with mooring fields (as everywhere will eventually be), it would have cost you $35/night to use that $5K boat. You would have had to stay home.

I still like Gord's hybrid system better.

Microship 25-07-2008 08:03

Linear Mooring
 
1 Attachment(s)
I'm currently on the linear mooring in Eagle Harbor (Bainbridge Island, WA), and four big boats are taking up less room than one swinging on a traditional mooring. I don't know how these things work in heavy conditions, but it seems to be a useful way to pack more in... with modest capital investment (and the city makes $.25/foot/night, which is a good deal around here).

Cheers from Nomadness,
Steve

Sandero 25-07-2008 08:24

One of my favorite pet peeves. Thanks Sully.

What disturbs me is the following. You take a harbor of a few hundred acres with a dock or two... perhaps a town landing which IS ideal for anchoring and mooring of boats. Boats need to be parked somewhere in the season and there is not enough dock space for sure and it's expensive and to some not as desirable as being moored out.

So what has happened because of all the boats, and the opportunity to turn moorings into cash cows, private interests have moved in and divided up these hundreds of acres and dropped in a mooring which costs less than $1,000 (not including annual maintenance) and then proceeds to charge 1,500 - $3,000 or more for the season.

So this public harbor is not producing income of about $200,000 per year to the "operators" of these moorings. Who are they? Perhaps the town itself, the yacht club, perhaps, marina XYZ and perhaps a few locals get theirs down for cost plus a yearly svs fee.

Can you anchor there and enjoy the harbor? Negative. No anchoring within 500' fet of shoreline. Can you pick up a courtesy mooring? Hell no, you payt $30-$50 per night.

So what IS the yacht club paying for its use of the land? To whom? And the Marina XYZ?

The water and the bottom belongs to the nation not the village. How was this taken for commercial exploitation?

David M 25-07-2008 08:42

I tend to agree with Gord but I do understand your side as well Sully. We don't let people live on our boats or in our houses when we are not there. Its always a possibility that some guy with a 65 foot boat could tie up to a mooring whose anchor and anchor rode was only meant for a 30 foot boat.

On the other hand, these people who claim a small section of public waterway for themselves should be paying something to the taxpayers.

GordMay 25-07-2008 11:36

Sully & I are not (necessarily) on opposing sides in this issue.

FREEdom is on the wain.

When I was not much younger that Sean, it was inconceivable (to me) to pay for water or television, and we joked about the impossibility of “selling refrigerators to Eskimos”.
Now, the vast majority of us buy bottled water, subscribe to (pay) cable TV, and nearly all Inuit own refrigerators.
If you're spending $1.49 for a tiny 9-ounce bottle of Evian, that's $21/gallon; and (for the greens”) it uses about 45 ounces of water to manufacture of the (PET) plastic bottle.
Capitalists want to acquire wealth; which sometimes creates wealth (sometimes it just redistributes it). This is one of the rational arguments for privately owned property - it encourages the productive use of scarce resources.

When this operator isn't in play, it gets more difficult to justify the denial of public access to those resources (properties).
Empty moorings, don't appear (to me) to be a productive use of that property.

TaoJones 25-07-2008 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay (Post 186512)
<snip>

FREEdom is on the wain.

<snip>

Sorry, Gord, but unless you are making some sly reference to giving up the consumption of alcohol, freedom isn't on the "wain" (a farm wagon). :smiling: Freedom is very much on the wane, however, meaning decreasing in power, intensity, importance; drawing to a close, approaching an end.

Of course, I don't have a Canadian dictionary to check, so possibly the spelling is different north of the 49th parallel.

TaoJones

GordMay 25-07-2008 12:26

Would the public interest be served if a local community were moved to place 20 moorings (where “demand” existed), in a cove that could otherwise only accommodate only 10 anchored boats?

"...Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose,
And nothin, aint worth nothin, but its free,"
~ K. Kristofferson (Bobby McGee)

Freedom isn't simply living with an absence of restraints.

True freedom in a democracy is necessarily limited, as in "Your freedom stops where my nose begins.”
Remember that the Supreme Court Justice, Oliver Wendell Holmes came down with a very interesting ruling on one occasion. He said, "Certainly, we have freedom of speech, but your freedom of speech has limits. You are not free to shout fire in a crowded cinema, you can't say anything you want."

Thanks Tao. As you suggest, I meant to convey the idea of diminishment, as in wane (not wain, as in wagon). I don’t get your reference to abstinence, though.
I’m flabbergasted that you don’t have a proper dictionary of the English language (Cdn).

TaoJones 25-07-2008 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay (Post 186525)
Thanks Tao. As you suggest, I meant to convey the idea of diminishment, as in wane (not wain, as in wagon). I don’t get your reference to abstinence, though.
I’m flabbergasted that you don’t have a proper dictionary of the English language (Cdn).

Would the public interest be served if a local community were moved to place 20 moorings (where “demand” existed), in a cove that could otherwise only accommodate only 10 anchored boats?

"On the wagon" is a phrase (probably coined in the US) which refers to abstaining from the consumption of alcohol. For example, see: On the wagon When someone who previously drank alcohol ceases to do so, he/she is "on the wagon." Similarly, when someone on the wagon resumes drinking alcohol, he/she is said to have "fallen off the wagon."

I've been searching all my life for a proper Canadian English-language dictionary, but alas, without success. For now, the OED will have to suffice. :smiling:

TaoJones

GordMay 25-07-2008 12:47

Tao: You’re too subtle (read ‘smart’) for me - "On the wagon” would have been obvious to the upper 75 percentile* of us.

* Consider how intelligent the “average” person is (or isn’t) – then recognize that virtually half of us fall below that standard.

Maren 25-07-2008 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay (Post 186529)
* Consider how intelligent the “average” person is (or isn’t) – then recognize that virtually half of us fall below that standard.

Funny!

... and most of us are average.

thims 25-07-2008 14:21

My mother (a kindergarten teacher) taught me an Aesop’s fable about a "dog in a manger" and how not allowing someone to use something you were not using is a social "sin". I still believe that, but far too few other people do. As for private property rights, It is IMHO far and away the largest factor in our all too quickly deteriorating society. Any kind of resource is up for grabs and it is not so it can "encourage the productive use of scarce resources", at least not in practice. It is so some pork barreled high roller who has connections with means beyond his own can acquire the "private rights" to something that was either privately or publicly held by others implicitly. Usually the exploitation is immediate "1. Control of the use of the property and 2. The right to any benefit from the property" but if it cannot be immediately exploited then "3. A right to transfer or sell the property or 4. A right to exclude others from the property." kicks in. Soon every drop of water every molecule of oxygen and even the absence of anything else will be "owned" by private interests and be unavailable for use by anybody or anything else. We have carbon credits (the right to pollute has been a popular sell for decades), and now carbon sequestering (wow, I can't believe the lawyers got that pig to fly). It won't end 'till there is nothing left to own. BTW that is why I love cruising and cruising people, they tend to opt out.

Flame suit on.

Sandero 25-07-2008 14:36

I love how they now have "water" police enforcing their "anchoring" restrictions. I suppose one problem is the effort to fight the ticket in court say 200 miles from where you life. I imagine if some clever lawyer appeared before the local "judge" and explained to him that the water and the bottom belong to the people not the folks who have claimed it for exploitation he would dismiss.

Why doesn't BoatUS take on this issue?

ssullivan 25-07-2008 15:53

Nice! :) ha ha

Let's get the Catalac 10Ms set up and ready for battle! :)

Catalac 10Ms must attract the same kind of people. Excellent post.

I'm pleasantly surprised at the responses to this thread, which has gone much better than my other, sort of similar one. Thank you to the people who have contributed.

I wish there was something we all could do... I have no answer at this time though.



Quote:

Originally Posted by thims (Post 186570)
My mother (a kindergarten teacher) taught me an Aesop’s fable about a "dog in a manger" and how not allowing someone to use something you were not using is a social "sin". I still believe that, but far too few other people do. As for private property rights, It is IMHO far and away the largest factor in our all too quickly deteriorating society. Any kind of resource is up for grabs and it is not so it can "encourage the productive use of scarce resources", at least not in practice. It is so some pork barreled high roller who has connections with means beyond his own can acquire the "private rights" to something that was either privately or publicly held by others implicitly. Usually the exploitation is immediate "1. Control of the use of the property and 2. The right to any benefit from the property" but if it cannot be immediately exploited then "3. A right to transfer or sell the property or 4. A right to exclude others from the property." kicks in. Soon every drop of water every molecule of oxygen and even the absence of anything else will be "owned" by private interests and be unavailable for use by anybody or anything else. We have carbon credits (the right to pollute has been a popular sell for decades), and now carbon sequestering (wow, I can't believe the lawyers got that pig to fly). It won't end 'till there is nothing left to own. BTW that is why I love cruising and cruising people, they tend to opt out.

Flame suit on.


delmarrey 25-07-2008 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay (Post 186386)
I can empathize with your anguish, as a similar thing happened to me.
I was only about 382 years too late to beat Peter Minuit to an excellent land deal ($26 for a nice little island). The greedy #%*&/x* didn’t even reserve a small parcel for my eventual use. ;)

The first-come owners may have (3) a right to transfer or sell the property.

Yeah! And one of my Great Grandfathers owned 350 acres of Long Island, and do you think he would have, at least, left me a small lot. :(

Pblais 25-07-2008 16:10

Quote:

and most of us are average.
Ok, I wouldn't push for a poll. I was hoping for more than average for most. It's not much but it feels better.

ssullivan 25-07-2008 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by delmarrey (Post 186610)
Yeah! And one of my Great Grandfathers owned 350 acres of Long Island, and do you think he would have, at least, left me a small lot. :(

Oh man.... !!

Yeah, the mistakes our family elders make sometimes.

Ironically, two of the world's best rated countries to live (happy life, potential to earn big $$, healthcare, etc..) are Ireland and Norway. These are where the two halves of my family left! :)

That's incredible about the 350 acres on Long Island. Do you know what part or town? In some areas, just a few acres (they don't even use that measurement in many spots close to the city) could be worth millions!

I feel for you on that one, Del. WOW.

Latitude9.5 25-07-2008 16:18

I know here in florida as long as you don't interfere with a moored boat you can anchor, there are several people right now anchored in the old southpoint anchorage area a few feet from the balls, they arent using a ball, but they are in the field.

shadow 25-07-2008 16:46

I always thought that if the mooring ball wasn't being used, it can be shared as long as the owner doesn't come back. If and when they do, you just move on. I guess this does apply in some areas. I guess I was hoping that this was more of a universal maritime courtesy thing among sailors.. Apparently I was either dreaming or just 100 years too late...

Also, I also thought that the water was pretty much free open range unless directly linked to your private property, i.e. slip, dock, etc.. I do recognize a country's sea rights and international waters, but that's on a much larger scale..

Perhaps it's different everywhere as well.. Oh well, need to read all of the fine details before sailing some day..

Pelagic 25-07-2008 17:37

I think Shadow brings up a very good point about the legality of many of those mooring fields.

Municipalities quite often overstep their right to enforce something, using environmental or security concerns to take control of some profit centre.

1....What are the limits of a foreshore lease?

2....In whose jurisdiction do the waters beyond that foreshore lease fall under?

3....Why can not a transient vessel anchor adjacent to an empty mooring buoy to protect his rights for finding a safe haven?

Perhaps some legal minds can answer

Sandero 25-07-2008 17:46

Another weird aspect of "commercialism"

In Greenport and neighboring Dering Harbor even if you rent a seasonal mooring, you have no rights to it when you leave (say for a weekend cruise). It can be rented to some transient (fine and dandy) but you don't share in the revenue. And you can't tell a bud tp pick up your mooring, because the mooring owner will pop over and collect transient fees. (no sublease no way jose)

How about a raft up? A bid comes to town and you want to be "close" as kissing cousins. No way jose. Not permitted... how about for a little lunch raft up. Nada. Your bud has to find someplace to anchor or pay for a transient mooring.

This is bidness.

hellosailor 25-07-2008 19:37

"I always thought that if the mooring ball wasn't being used, it can be shared"
Shadow, in this day and age, when someone aboard the boat almost always needs to catch a train or make a timetable? The trespass isn't so quickly ignored, and it is trespass, just as pitching your tent on someone's lawn would be. "Oh, there's no one home, I'll just stay in this nice house till the owners get home." Nuh-uh, that hasn't worked since Goldilocks days.<G>

Pelagic, the answers to your questions will depend on what state and municipality you are in, and what regulations apply. The US is one nation but of 50 sovereign states, with many different laws. In some places the bottom is privately owned, in others, federal or state laws apply. "Location location location" means everything.

Sean, Viva La Revolution! Yes, capitalism sucks when you don't have the capital. You know the Golden Rule? Those that have the Gold, make the Rules. The only way to change it is to become a local citizen and resident--not a vagabond--and then vote. And convince your fellow citizens to vote with you. You are the newcomer, the auslander, and the folks who are letting those moorings lie fallow (so to speak) may very well be third or fourth generation, who equally resent all you newcomers crowding their town.

I'd like a little waterside cottage with dock for $20,000, but it seems like a couple of milllion other folks got there before me. And want five million for the cottage. That's the way it goes. Come the revolution...Oh, wait a minute, that hasn't worked out so well anywhere either, has it?[g]


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