World Arc with 2 toddlers... Crazy?

[barnakiel]

YES - to the rally - esp. IF you want to use its socializing springboard for any reason.

You can go to any place the rally goes on your own but participating in one sure has its benefits.

b.

[deckofficer]

It is hard to beat the social aspects of the Rally. Not only will you be socializing with some hard core cruisers, you would gain one hell of a rep and notoriety as "The couple that sailed the 2013 rally with two toddlers".

Talk about springboarding into cruising history and legends. If you think the kids can handle it without driving you or them up the wall (bulkhead), it would be both an adventure and story.

Even though barnakiel got me thinking of the social aspect, from my perspective, cruising is a laid-back process for me, but then I'm also not a night life type, rather a hammock between the palms kind of guy and my cruising reflects that.

[Mimsy]

Why are you wanting to do the rally? Is it for a sense of security sailing with other boats?

For me, I would prefer to buddy boat with other kid boats and not sail to a schedule. You won't find a lot of toddlers on the WRC but you can find LOTS of cruising boats with kids and you can buddy boat with like minded folks as opposed to folks who signed up for the same rally as you.

We aren't cruising yet, have one more year on land but we already know plenty of kid boats. Enough that we could pick just about any route and have both playmates for the kids and adults we enjoy and trust enough to buddy boat with.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

Hey rebel heart, long time, no chat. You keeping too busy with those shapely clientele?

Hey man. Nope, just been hustling every day in my 9-5 gig. We've got a bunch of stuff to knock out in the next few months so you'll either see lots of frantic posts from me or no posts as I hang upside down in a bilge working on some loose nut.

[Olivergm]

Thank you for all the responses! Points taken.

A number of things appeal of the ARC:
Safety-support (clearance etc)-social...
The main one though is my time limit. I could just stay in SE Asia as there is plenty to see here but I liked the idea of buying a relatively new (08+) cat in the Caribbean and sailing her home to potentially live aboard on my return to SE Asia. There are no bargains to be had in Asia and the Caribbean or even Europe would be safer and easier for new-bees. I've cruised Croatia in the early 2000's and appreciated some of the facilities (restaurants / fuel etc) which I can't imagine being as convenient in Indo, Malaysia etc...

Sounds like I need to buy in Bahamas area sail south for a season and then get her crewed over to Fiji area without the wife and kids. Could then look at brining her home the next season at a more leisurely pace.

Now to get some sailing hours under my belt!

[deckofficer]

Olivergm, it sounds like you have given it a lot of thought. You mention Croatia, and if memory serves, that is a VAT free haven and boat prices will reflect that. Toddlers on that kind of fast paced run, will probably learned to become adaptable in life, and as a adaptable person myself, that is a good thing. I never need to be entertained, can spend large chunks of time by myself.

Eric,

I need to get caught up on your blog so I don't waste your time with a bunch of questions about your future cruising that you have already covered. Besides, that adorable daughter and her picture updates is worth a trip to your blog just for the cuteness factor. I'm sure there are a lot of young couples that are in awe of your family's upcoming travel adventures. I hope to join you in the future, but for the sake of my dear old dad, not too near future if you know what I mean.

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

Olivergm, it sounds like you have given it a lot of thought. .

Edit: please see post after this as i missed the OPs new plan, but take this post for what it is, a concenred parent advising another parent...


I apologise in advance for the directness that is about to come....

I have to totally disagree with the above statement. The OP has most definitely not given it a lot of thought. What he has thought about is his needs in acquiring a boat, what he hasn't thought about or I can't see in this thread anyway, is how he is going to sail with two small children.

The advice in this thread I also find generally itrresponsible with regards to his original question. I wonder which posters in this thread have actually done blue water miles with toddlers besides myself? The only good advice I have seen is one I initially ridiculed, the advice from Barnie to hire crew.

My wife and I have done 12k miles with our two little ones including sailing fond cape of hope, crossing the southern Atlantic and sailing up the coast of brazil. I however had well over 70k miles both professional and pleasure before I took my kids sailing.

I don't think you need that much experience to sail safely with you kids but you do need to take it slow.

I guess what is chaffing me is that the primary concern here seems to be how you will get to go on the arc and not really the original question - is it crazy to do the arc with kids...

Let's talk some basic facts

1. In an emergency situation it is extremely difficult to get small children off a boat without hurting them, ask a SAR as I have
2. Small children tend to not survive very long in life rafts due to heat loss and exposure, in addition to the difficulties of getting them into them safely
3. Most deaths involving children happen while the boat is in a marina
4. Most non fatal injuries to children happen in coastal waters
5. Have you thought how you are going to secure your children should you and your wife need to both be on deck?
6. How about in bad weather? A lee berth is often not safe enough and the child may panic and try to climb out further injuring themselves
7. Seasickness? Small children dehydrate very very quickly and emergencies escalate in less than 24 hours
8. Have you spoken with a doctor about the basic medical skills and medicines you should posses to enable you to care for your children?
9. Buddy boating is not as safe as it sounds. What it primarily offers is radio contact and advice from other cruisers while making passage. You should disabuse yourself of the notion that in bad weather should an emergency arrive that another boat will be able to save you.
10. The ARC has been known to set sail in weather windows that while safe would be less optimal than I would choose

These are just the emergency and extreme events I could write a novel on the day to day needs like how are you going to deal with nappies? How about watch schedules, entertain,ent? Harness and tethers? Food?

Is it all doable? Of course. Is it doable by you? Of course. Is it doable in the manner you are talking about in the time frame you are talking about? Possibly, but I wouldn't do it and I would question the motivation of any parent who did.

My concern here is that you are being driven by your needs and are going to set yourself up with an unrealistic time schedule to prep yourself and you boat for what is vastly more important...

...your children's needs and safety.

Couple small tips for safety.

1. Each child needs a car seat. There need to be attachment points on the boat for those seats. Ideally there should be one set in the same area as the pilot berths, the other should be where you can see them from the cockpit. This allows you in really bad weather to secure them and also allows you in situations where you both may need to be on deck, like a sail change or anchoring, you can strap them in and still see them. We rarely needed to do the latter but it is nice to have the option.

2. All the lifelines should be netted. You should also have cables with quick release pelican hooks across the stern with nets. Basically make the boat secure to prevent falling off.

3. You should install extra pad eyes in the bottom of the cockpit that allow the children general freedom to roam there but keeps them from being able to go on deck

4. A secure place to hold the, to change nappies

5. Consider installing handholds at heights they can reach

Etc., etc.

Sorry for the bluntness, I just feel that the general "go now" consensus of this forum is not appropriate in this particular situation and you should really slow down and consider your motivations and skill sets...

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by Olivergm

Thank you for all the responses! Points taken.

A number of things appeal of the ARC:
Safety-support (clearance etc)-social...
The main one though is my time limit. I could just stay in SE Asia as there is plenty to see here but I liked the idea of buying a relatively new (08+) cat in the Caribbean and sailing her home to potentially live aboard on my return to SE Asia. There are no bargains to be had in Asia and the Caribbean or even Europe would be safer and easier for new-bees. I've cruised Croatia in the early 2000's and appreciated some of the facilities (restaurants / fuel etc) which I can't imagine being as convenient in Indo, Malaysia etc...

Sounds like I need to buy in Bahamas area sail south for a season and then get her crewed over to Fiji area without the wife and kids. Could then look at brining her home the next season at a more leisurely pace.

Now to get some sailing hours under my belt!

Now you really have my apologies, I somehow missed this post. I assumed you were still considering the arc....

...the above sounds like a really good plan.

[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by Olivergm

SNIP


So the questions is... Are we crazy ...

SNIP

. Thanks

YES!!! Mad as a hatter. Crazy as a cut snake. No offence intended. Of course you may just get around and still have two live kids and a wife. But its highly likely you wont after the first or 2nd gale! Too blunt? I hope so. We dont want you dead.

One week courses will show you enough to get confused when the poo hits the fan. Frankly, I would find a nice area, say Caribbean and spend some time island hopping and learning the boat. Six months at least. The pacific has limited rescue services. Very Limited. Only very experienced sailors should attempt a crossing like that. Its not all palm trees. If a squall of 50 knots hits you unaware during the night, what will you do? How will you respond? How will the boat respond? Etc etc etc


Of course, you could offer a ride to an experienced "blue water" sailor. In which case- go for it.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Olivergm

Hi, my wife and I considering buying a 40-47ft catamaran and taking our two kids on the 2014 World Arc. We currently have zero experience but intend buying a few months before the event and doing a live aboard course for the first few weeks. Will also do a 1 week cat course over the next year and associated Diesel engine, radar courses offered by my local marina.

So the questions is... Are we crazy doing this with a 3yr old and 2yr old? I intend taking 1.5yrs off work so think the fast pace of the ARC suites but am told it is very tiring and that I should just consider some cruising in the Pacific. We intend to sail to Aus in the Arc and then continue up home to SE Asia on our own. Any views? I know there is no correct answer but am
Interested in view from people in the know... Thanks

I can tell you now, the WARC people won't even accept your entry. You simply won't have enough experience

I did WARC 2010 aboard a 44ft cat with my wife as crew. You could tell the people who hadn't been sailing very long - and by that I mean they had only been sailing for 5 years or less - as they seemed to attract all the 'bad luck' which of course wasn't really bad luck, it was lack of experience.

The pace of WARC is intense and the sailing can be challenging. No more challenging than experienced on coastal cruises, but when the challenge continues 24 hours a day for maybe 10 consecutive days, it can get pretty tough. Read my wife's blog http://sailingjeannius.blogspot.com around October, November 2010 for our experience crossing the Indian Ocean.

So, my advice, learn to sail, buy your cat, then take your family down to the Caribbean (I'm presuming you are from the USA, if not then choose some other gentle cruising ground nearby) and see how you get on for a year or two. Then consider going further.

[atoll]

good posts from jeannius and foolish sailor heed their words!

i too would only consider someone "experianced" once they have crossed at least 2 oceans as skipper.

both of my kids sailed from a very early age on our 2 1/2 circumnavigations,my daughter at 6 weeks old,bundaberg to darwin,my son at 18 months crossed the atlantic.

but and this is a big but,we had a large yacht,my wife and my self had many years of ocean passage making,plus we mainly had at least another 2-6 crew.

by all means go sailing but get some hardcore experiance for yourself AND your wife,your wife needs to be just as competent in boat handeling as you do.

[Olivergm]

Thanks guys, much appreciated. Sounds like a minimum of 6 month in the Caribbean is called for and then a crew for the crossings... WArc 16 possibly!!

[atoll]

you might consider these guys if you are based in thailand,and get a new build,and save yourself a lot of hassel getting a 2nd hand boat to thailand

boat building shipyard in Phuket thailand and yacht charter/about us

[zeehag]

read bumfuzzles blog--they sail with 2 toddlers. they started out in a cat and upgraded to a 43 spindrift mono---but they ARE sailing with 2 toddlers.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by zeehag

read bumfuzzles blog--they sail with 2 toddlers. they started out in a cat and upgraded to a 43 spindrift mono---but they ARE sailing with 2 toddlers.

they are what i would call experinced sailors,having completed one circumnavigation before they had children.

currently sailing with toddlers,but mainly holed up in marinas,with no plans to do any long distance stuff, i would think till the kids get older,sensible parents by all accounts.

the issue here is thinking that because you have read a few books and done some shorebased courses,you are qualified to cross oceans as a skipper,putting your own and other peoples lives at risk.