Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-01-2013, 15:00   #46
Registered User
 
Bluefuss's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: B.C. Canada / San Carlos, Sonora
Boat: Tayana 37
Posts: 168
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Wow you really are "of the north" aren't you Bob. Robbed in Nipawin Sask? Were they after your long underwear?
__________________

__________________
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
Bluefuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 21:01   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 959
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

I've been robbed in Los Angeles, Reno, Puerto Rico, Oakland, and New York. Only marginally does that influence if I should ever return to those places. Likewise, if I should return to certain places I should keep my eyes and ears open. And in those places, I should be more careful in reading the behavior of people. In Mexico, my experience has been when one is pulling you close as in friendship, their ulterior motive is different. In this way, as becoming my experience, I am more jaded.

Specific to Bash's comment, I would say this: an organization is a known quantity. It behooves the local to treat the org differently than the passerby. In Tahiti I was treated differently, in the negative sense, because I was with Green Peace, than when several times I came there as a cruiser on a private vessel, likewise in Hawaii. The same could be said of the cruise ships that arrive in Ensenada or, in older days, in Honolulu. The locals had a decided love/hate with the mass of tourists. I digress.

Am I "racist" for saying a Japanese longliner fired a zipper across my bow? No. But such would be the case if I were to extrapolate from that single event to say all Japanese are suspicious and warlike.

I have friends in Hawaii, Tahiti, Western Samoa, and yes, Mexico I would return to. These are friends in the sense of opening their homes to me. Still, I understand those friendships are rare and unique. That is not to say a haole is not welcome but to say these relationships are to be respected.

But to say my behavior warranted such behavior is like saying Chebba's throat scar was the fault of his behavior. I know how to conduct myself in the world. Whether or not you dismiss my claim is irrelevant.

We should not be fighting over whether this or that is true, nor how true or untrue it is. What is the main point here is that each individual should not take at first glance what it seems. This has been the way of the world since the beginning. Each of us have obviously had different experiences, nonetheless, keep your eyes open.

Would one expect anxious-free passage through the Red Sea simply because one other has claimed a smooth passage? Of course not. Yet would it make my comments "racist" because I advise to be ware?
__________________

__________________
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2013, 07:04   #48
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,577
Images: 240
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
I've been robbed in Los Angeles, Reno, Puerto Rico, Oakland, and New York ...
... I know how to conduct myself in the world ...
Your experiences might suggest otherwise.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2013, 23:17   #49
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
What a horrible pile of racist garbage! It is sad what happened to your uncle, whatever that was exactly, it sounds like he was a generous man. But your wild accusations and assumptions here are completely out of touch with reality. Are there bad, racist people in Mexico? Yes. Just as there are in every country unfortunately. But the kind and generous folks far, far outnumber them. Everywhere.
Where you get racist from that story, I'll never know. To me he was relating his experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chebba View Post
I can't believe this. we simply try to interject some reality and we get slammed for being weak, drunks, stupid, racist. we get told that it's just a game and to just play along and everything will be alright. we know that there is crime everywhere. we know about hennipin ave in minneapolis. all the other bad spots. we just never get told it's just a game and to go and hand out fruit. I just wanted to share some facts. I just wanted to share some reality. warn people to be careful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
I posted some crime statistics on a thread like this once and got run over by the "its so nice here, everyone is wonderful" crowd. More and more tourists are getting killed, raped, robbed and assaulted as the Mexican society becomes more and more violent.
I had the same thing happen after such a post. I was relating a boat in Z town that ended up on the beach where the locals were trying to extort money from the owner. I was just relating a true event and out came the Vigilantist

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
Just to be crystal clear, I quoted Richard5's original post and called it racist garbage and I stand by that assessment. I said nothing of cebba and his story.

My point was that there are far more nice people in the world than evil people. But if you believe the opposite and want to spend your life thinking and treating people thus, that is your choice.
By all means stand by your assessment but to call a person a racist is a pretty heavy assessment if not an all out distortion of the use of the word.

I don't know why every time someone has an opinion and someone else does not agree with it, they play the racist card.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2013, 23:53   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 382
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

From Wikipedia:

"Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior."

Did you read Richard5's original post that I quoted specifically? I called the post a pile of racist garbage, not the author BTW. I think people can say all sorts of stupid things from time to time but not be stupid all the time. What I am judging in this instance are the words and tone of his specific post in which he called Mexican people of the town where his uncle lived devils, they were liars and murderers, only interested in tourist money. I understood him to be saying quite clearly that the country of Mexico, because of its corrupt and horrible citizens, was a dangerous place in its entirety. To me that smacks of racism.

While I certainly do disagree with him, I am not pulling "the racist card" out of nowhere. I didn't make this "heavy assessment" out of thin air and I certainly don't "play the racist card" every time I disagree with someone. The post I quoted specifically was a pretty mean characterization of an entire country of people, may of whom are IMHE and in the experience of others, really decent, compassionate, and honest people. If he did not intend to malign all Mexicans in his post, he could have chosen different language and made that clear. Unless it's been edited (I haven't read it again) it was a very inflammatory story and statement.
__________________
terminalcitygrl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 00:03   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 382
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

FWIW the entire posting on racism on Wikipedia is quite interesting - I've only quoted the first bit here for brevity. It does allude to the difficulties we have using and defining the term. To me, generalizing negative characteristics to an entire group of people based on ethnicity or geographical region based on the actions of a few is racist. You may draw your line in a different place.
__________________
terminalcitygrl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 01:05   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post

I don't know why every time someone has an opinion and someone else does not agree with it, they play the racist card.
"every time"? Really? That statement is just inciting an argument.
__________________
jostalli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 05:55   #53
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
From Wikipedia:

"Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior."

Did you read Richard5's original post that I quoted specifically?
Yes...I did and by that definition, I don't think he was dividing groups. Just relating their experiences and attempting to add another side to the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jostalli View Post
"every time"? Really? That statement is just inciting an argument.
Well, it did in this thread and others on CF.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 06:24   #54
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,767
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

problem with the story about the boat in zihuatenejo was the entire story was a lie.
the man took a boat into a south opening bay in hurricane season and left it on a mooring only fit for a panga..and did not pay anyone to watch the boat--the locals watched for no money. the boat broke loose by itself--the alleged marks on the anchoring chain were from his own bobstay--and he so vilely badmouthed the locals that he was offered the benefit of not being imprisoned but allowed to pay a hefty fine an d exit zihuatenejo permanently. was an entirely different story than the one he placed online when the reality was learned. i learned the truth with only a small amount of investigation.
the only moral to the story is do NOT leave boats in unsafe places during storm season --especially not in a bay where there is NO shelter from tropical storms. 4 came into zihuat and hit this place well while halcyon was unsafely moored. the mooring was only 1500 pounds for a 20+ ton boat, and the chain was only 38 not 1/2 inch...it was storm damage. simply and purely.
zeehag is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 07:13   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 47
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Aussie started a thread where his family broke the ties we all have face / faced and took a year off from their lives in Australia, to cruise the Sea of Cortez. A great thread that inspired many CF members.

But, by post #5 the word "safety" slithered into the conversation. The flood gates opened and we quickly went from a wonderful example of family cruising in Sea of Cortez to:
- knife in throat (pic included)
- theft of all proportions
- bloody fights with tire irons
- electrical fences / pitbulls for protection
- murder!!!
And of course no discussion about family cruising would not be complete without a little "racism accusations".

Good on you folks who tried to keep the discussion on topic, but, the "safe" topic is just to alluring for those that need to feed their fears.

For everyone else, "Good Sailing" !!! And oh yea, "Be Safe!"

The OP started his thread with "Debated whether to write this".....
He ended with " Go for it!"

I wonder who will "not" go for it, because of threads like this? Hmmmm.
__________________
ChamJam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 09:27   #56
Registered User
 
Aussie_Sequoia's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Prout Event 34
Posts: 250
Send a message via Skype™ to Aussie_Sequoia
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Thanks ChamJam.

We're still here (we'll head back to Oz next month) and I stand by all of my original sentiments. We have loved it here and felt nothing but love from the locals.

If there are more arguments... can you all take them to another thread?
__________________
Aussie_Sequoia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 10:52   #57
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

I was sickened by the racist comments of bobofthenorth concerning the good people of Saskatchewan. There is no question that folks in Saskachewan are more more violent, prone to behaving criminally and even look funny. I'm surprised that the US doesn't have a prohibition against folks born in Saskachewan visiting or immigrating to the US.
Can you imagine ghettos in big cities full of illegal immigrants from Saskatchewan? I tremble at the thought!!! Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 12:11   #58
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Pacific
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 1,451
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Aussie,

great post. As a product of upbringing while cruising I can't think of a better experience for your child. While there may be safety concerns (I know my grandmother had them), the experience your kid will get moving through different cultures as they grow up will stand him/her in good stead throughout their life. One day being a child of multiple cultures s/he may help end some of the divisiveness seen here and just about everywhere in life.

We were last in the Sea about 8 years ago and found the same things you did; majestic scenic vistas, amazing wildlife, and outgoing people who made us part of the neighborhood and shared their lives with us.

For the assumers, this quote previously in the thread bothered me:

Quote:
but violent crime in the US is greater than that of other developed nations but orders of 10 times less than developing countries
We all have anecdotal evidence about bad things that have happened to us, but those anecdotes are individual data points, and extrapolating from there to cover all of Mexico, or the US, or ... just doesn't work. From the sensationalist news most will assume, as above, that the US has one of the highest violent crime rates in the "developed" world, and it does have one of the highest murder rates, but when you look at overall violent crime:

Violent crime worse in Britain than in US | Mail Online

http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf

Historia Futura Praedicit. History predicts the future.: Is America Really More Violent Than Europe?

you'll see that things in the US are better than in many places. The bottom line is that bad things can happen anywhere. Being careful is good advice anywhere. And with all respect to Richard5's first anecdote, being a part of the local community is one of the best ways to be careful, and also one of the greatest joys of cruising. While being part of the community apparently did not keep you uncle safe (our condolences), I would hate that the lesson from that would be that cruisers should interact less with the people in the places they are visiting. Only with more interaction will we demonstrate that we eat, breathe, and fart exactly the same as every other human being on the planet and do away with pre-conceived notions about our "difference".
__________________
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 12:26   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ontario canada
Boat: grampian 26
Posts: 1,743
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
I was sickened by the racist comments of bobofthenorth concerning the good people of Saskatchewan. There is no question that folks in Saskachewan are more more violent, prone to behaving criminally and even look funny. I'm surprised that the US doesn't have a prohibition against folks born in Saskachewan visiting or immigrating to the US.
Can you imagine ghettos in big cities full of illegal immigrants from Saskatchewan? I tremble at the thought!!! Phil
Well what do you expect when you let them off the farm?
__________________
perchance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 18:28   #60
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Update from the Sea of Cortez

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChamJam View Post
Aussie started a thread where his family broke the ties we all have face / faced and took a year off from their lives in Australia, to cruise the Sea of Cortez. A great thread that inspired many CF members.

But, by post #5 the word "safety" slithered into the conversation. The flood gates opened and we quickly went from a wonderful example of family cruising in Sea of Cortez to:
- knife in throat (pic included)
- theft of all proportions
- bloody fights with tire irons
- electrical fences / pitbulls for protection
- murder!!!
And of course no discussion about family cruising would not be complete without a little "racism accusations".

Good on you folks who tried to keep the discussion on topic, but, the "safe" topic is just to alluring for those that need to feed their fears.

For everyone else, "Good Sailing" !!! And oh yea, "Be Safe!"

The OP started his thread with "Debated whether to write this".....
He ended with " Go for it!"

I wonder who will "not" go for it, because of threads like this? Hmmmm.
Thank you and good post
I am on my way south in the fall. It is what it is. I listen to the wonderful adventures of sailors in Mx, as well as people who find themselves in the wrong circumstances at the wrong time. I only got my hair up when someone wanted to win a conversation accusing someone of being a racist. That is a powerful word that should be well thought out and used sparingly.
While I'm in Mx, I will use the same common sense I use anywhere I go. Look, listen and think. It has worked so far.
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sea of cortez

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.