sad news from the boating world

[LakeSuperior]

Three drowned and 24 rescued after a 34 foot boat capsized in New Yorks Long Island Sound

Three dead, 24 rescued after yacht capsizes off New York

[Hannah on 'Rita T']

How do you get 27 people into a 34 foot boat? Obviously not safely.

[Cormorant]

Apparently it was a Silverton 34. It boggles my mind that someone would try to fit 24 people onto a boat like this. . . . and doubtless everyone was up on deck, and up on the flybridge -- not down below.

[sailinman]

Three kids dead after yacht capsizes off Long Island, New York - U.S. News

investigation will be ongoing to determine if there were sufficient life vests on board...

but current rules state children dont need to wear vests when inside the cabin... and even if the children were wearing their vests, being trapped inside the cabin with a vest on would make it damn near difficiult if not impossible for a young child to swim outside...

what a sad sad event...

glad to hear that alcohol wasnt the problem..

[jerrymc]

27 people on board a 34' boat?

Outrageous, stupid & criminal. I owned a Coronado 34, which was considered a fairly roomy boat, for several years & can't imagine boarding that many souls.

I've read 2 or 3 reports, this morning & they point to a wake from a passing boat as the culprit...wonder what the freeboard was with that much weight on board? 2 or 3 inches?

It is always sad when something like this happens, particularly involving children, but this, IMO, calls for criminal prosecution. Idiots!

[Cormorant]

There's another thread running on this topic here:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...edy-84707.html

I posted a pic of a Silverton 34 there. Can't imagine trying to load 24 people onto one of those.

[sailinman]

criminal prosecution isnt the answer.... public knowldge and awareness is the answer...

prosectuion will punish those 'responsible' but the bigger issue is deterrent...

without public knowing of this event then it will be repeated, and I am sure it has happened in the past...

[boatsail]

Criminal charges for what is clearly an accident (stupid, but an accident) only ruins more lives.

Criminal charges every time an "accident" happens is very similar to "suing" someone every time something does not go the way you want. I agree that awareness is more of a solution. The reality is that there will probably be more regulation put into place.

Remember a few years ago when people were on a deck at a house. Several were reported to fall down with many people on it. Same thing.

unfortunate anytime that life is lost, but we cannot regulate everything. Who would you charge? The captain? The parent who brought the child on board? BOTH? The criminal intent just was not there. It would be a shame if the affected families were involved in criminal proceedings.

My heart goes out to them.

It is a shame to have a loss of life especially when life is so young and never had a chance to live in this great world.

[youmeandthed]

Honestly it doesn't matter what the rules are on land. On the ocean the captain is responsible for his ship, boat, and passengers. The captain should most definitely be held responsible for his negligence in taking so many people on a boat and not having the kids in lifejackets. What kind of sentence he/she serves is not rally the point, the fact that their criminal record will carry a black mark is appropriate.

In my opinion the Captain's negligence killed three children.

[boatsail]

Originally Posted by youmeandthed

Honestly it doesn't matter what the rules are on land. On the ocean the captain is responsible for his ship, boat, and passengers. The captain should most definitely be held responsible for his negligence in taking so many people on a boat and not having the kids in lifejackets. What kind of sentence he/she serves is not rally the point, the fact that their criminal record will carry a black mark is appropriate.

In my opinion the Captain's negligence killed three children.

I understand where you were coming from, I was simply trying to make the point that our society is to litigious.

Should the parent get in trouble for putting the child in that dangerous situation? NO. There was no criminal intent. If I were in a jury, I would think they are stupid, but not criminal and could not sleep at night if I were to vote guilty for stupidity. Each person in this world should have more ...personal accountability....I would not have put my self in that position and could not hold someone else accountable for my decision to be on the boat.

[kthoennes]

We have a Carver aft cabin 32, very similar boat. The most we've ever had on the boat was 10, and that felt very snug. I cannot imagine how you squeeze 27 people on a boat like that. Say six on the aft deck, six on the sunpads on the bow, six on the flybridge, and then say another *nine* more inside?? What in the world were they thinking? Just from a comfort point of view, that had to feel like a subway car in New York City at rush hour. I don't get it.

[David M]

Do we now need to start putting capacity placards on boats in the 30 something foot range because some people do not know not to put 27 people on a 34 foot boat?

Yeah, probably. But then anyone who would do that should not be going out on the water anyway. But then anyone can take any sized boat out on the water and not know red from green. But then some people cry foul every time licensing for yachties comes up. And so on and so forth.

If we don't want licensing then expect a greater death toll out on the water each year. That is the price. It's hard to say if the price is worth it in the name of individual liberties. What is human life worth versus the value of individual liberties?

We license everyone who flies an airplane or drives a car in the name of reducing the human death toll. Is it right to do that?

Is there a perception that boats are incredibly safe, therefore boat operators should not need any sort of training before putting the lives of others in their hands?

I'm not suggesting licensing or not. I have mixed feelings about it. It's just an interesting topic.

[youmeandthed]

I agree there is two much litigation going on, way to much. However, IMHO this was more than just an accident. The Captain was on a new boat, with way too many people, and children died because they were not wearing life jackets.

Parent have their children taken away from them all the time because they put them in dangerous situations; crack houses, polygamist compounds, abusive households, ect.. Why can't you punish a parent (or family friend) because they didn't provide adequate safety for lives under their concern. It must be a rich-poor thing. Because they have money to afford a boat they must have higher morals and intentions than an addict or a cult leader.

They don't need jail time, but they do need to be held accountable.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by David M

Do we now need to start putting capacity placards on boats in the 30 something foot range because some people do not know not to put 27 people on a 34 foot boat?

Yeah, probably. But then anyone who would do that should not be going out on the water anyway. But then anyone can take any sized boat out on the water and not know red from green. But then some people cry foul every time licensing for yachties comes up. And so on and so forth.

If we don't want licensing then expect a greater death toll out on the water each year. That is the price. It's hard to say if the price is worth it in the name of individual liberties. What is human life worth versus the value of individual liberties?

We license everyone who flies an airplane or drives a car in the name of reducing the human death toll. Is it right to do that?

Is there a perception that boats are incredibly safe, therefore boat operators should not need any sort of training before putting the lives of others in their hands?

I'm not suggesting licensing or not. I have mixed feelings about it. It's just an interesting topic.

David, I think there is a strong tendency in people to view whatever they do regularly as safe, whether it is or not. I'm reminded again about the four football players who flipped their boat 60 miles off the coast of Florida in the Gulf. One of the wives said they were "experienced" boaters. But apparently some of their experience was doing things that weren't smart, but they got lucky. Just for starters, the boat wasn't designed to go that far from shore. In addition, clearly they weren't i the habit of checking the weather, because all the people in my sailing club knew that weather was coming in for at least two days.

There were a bunch of other errors. When they couldn't get the anchor up from the bow, they tied it to the stern, which is how they flipped. None of then were wearing float jackets, even though they were now caught in weather and trying to solve a problem.

They didn't have any kind of ditch bag, and the first man to die was the one who wore himself out repeatedly diving under the boat to get jackets and water for everyone.

Only one man survived. He was sitting on top of the engine; they took turns sitting there. The others would be in the water holding on to the boat, but one by one they died.

They thought they were "safe boaters."

[Hearts Content]

Like most accidents, it's likely not just one thing.

You never hear about those losing teeth, broken bones and concussions and associated boat damage and accidents caused by the wake. My daughter was tossed from one side of the boat to the other by one of these idiots tossing a huge quarter wake at our boat (I could have touched his boat with my boat pole). Luckily just some bruises - it could have been much worse.

There needs to be liability for wakes. Some jacka$$ in a 40'+ Searay shoots a 6 foot wake creating chaos for the boats it passes is ridiculous, reckless and should be criminal. It's tantamount to running someone off the road as the wake is an extension of the boat that "hits" the other boat.

Wake injury is something that should never occur and is a result of complete disregard for the safety of others.

I see this as something that needs to be much higher on law enforcement's taxing priority list than giving out tickets for no fire extinguisher on a friggin dinghy! About the most ignorant thing I have ever heard of (happened to my friend with others warned).