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Old 06-07-2012, 09:23   #106
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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I was a guest on someone else's boat. I think the assumption that a child doesn't need a jacket because he or she is six is a huge, and unwise, one.
Like (probably) most sailors of a certain age here, I grew up without seatbelts in the first car we had (no kiddie seats, either), non-tempered glass and brakes now considered very sub-par. I actually recall seeing a car accident when I was eight that showed what an unbelted body going through a windshield looked like. Pretty busted up and definitely, clearly dead.

The second car had belts. We used them. Now, only the terminally careless or willfully stupid do not, on the basis that physics doesn't care about your freedom.

The same thing applies with PFDs. My son wears his always. It's the law in Canada for under-18s and furthermore, you can't wear self-inflating PFDs...they must be floating vest types.

Adults have to have one per person aboard, but they don't have to wear them. I wear a self-inflating one, most of the time. When I sail alone, I wear a floaty vest, on the assumption that I could be "boomed" off the boat and the little hydrostatic thing could screw up.

I've actually fallen off a boat during a docking (long story), and you go deep pretty quickly. The inflating device worked, and one rather dramatically "breaches" at the surface. I think for kids and even smaller adults, a crotch strap is an excellent idea. That's why I like the Spinlock setup.

Kids lose heat faster than adults, even in "warm" water. They often cannot swim for the time needed to get the boat around to retrieve them, nor can they hoist themselves back aboard, even with a ladder. A PFD is cheap insurance. So is a seat belt, a device now almost completely accepted as part of driving.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:38   #107
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Re: sad news from the boating world

For everyone involved in this little spat. Stop it now or this thread gets closed. It does not matter who is right or wrong.

Just stop...period.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:46   #108
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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I'd be willing to be there were not 27 lifevests. The boat owner probably doesn't even own 27 life vests.
Right! I can't imagine they had room for them. And 1 for every person aboard is boating 101. it's actually remedial boating .01

Like others have said, I'm surprised that the 27 passengers could be so dumb to even set foot on such a vessel.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:53   #109
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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It does look that way, but I don't think he's handcuffed. That's a watch on one wrist and some kind of a bracelet on the other.
Quite right! When I first glanced at the photo, I thought he was handcuffed, but he is not. I understand the previous poster's mistake, but he should look a bit closer.
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:48   #110
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Re: sad news from the boating world

In this jurisdiction, I think you are VERY unlikely to see a successful criminal prosecution (though there may be a token arrest).

Legally, this boat operator is liable for civil damages up to the moon. However, for a manslaughter conviction with criminal negligence, you are going to have to prove to a jury that;

1. The owner knew he was operating the boat in a criminally negligent manner
2. The owner did it anyway.

This is a pretty high burden of proof for the state, and one unlikley to be proven, especially in light of the fact that the defendant was a new owner.

No judgements here, just my understanding of the law in NY.
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:58   #111
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Re: sad news from the boating world

"Like others have said, I'm surprised that the 27 passengers could be so dumb to even set foot on such a vessel."

Not to make excuses for these idiot adults, but I have watched fireworks on the water in this area (including this specific area) enough times to know what the social dynamic is.

As boaters, we should all be able to understand that watching fireworks from aboard a boat is a wonderful way to spend a summer evening. In the US, it's a very big deal for many of us, definitely one of the highlights of the boating season.

Now this group of 27 people appears to be a close nit group, several families who spent a lot of time together, with maybe a few friends thrown in.. Now along comes this 34 foot boat, a new ingredient to this group of people, some of whom have watched fireworks from the water before. And this particular fireworks display in Oyster Bay, is well known as one of the best, so there is plenty of interest, as the invitations go out. So each parent is pleased to be included, and the kids are all excited.

I am sure that some, probably most, of the parents were concerned when they saw how crowded the boat would be. But it was just going to be a short excursion, and it's the 4th of July Fireworks. They probably think this is going to be like one of those Around Manhattan Cruises. Boat has to be safe, right? No problem, right?

Again, I would never try to make excuses or defend these idiot adults. Just trying to convey the social dynamic that may have kept them from exercising what would clearly have been better judgment to say "no thanks".
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:08   #112
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Re: sad news from the boating world

@ Bash's comment = +2
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:36   #113
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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REALLY BRUCE SMITH, REALLY?

I got a nasty "you are rude" letter from Saucy Sailoress for pointing out that a boater in a thread was an idiot, yet she lets this completely racist and cruel remark stand. I do wish that we could be more even handed when removing posts from long time members, instead of letting what is obviously a very derrogatory remark like this stand. Perhaps Bruce Smith would be less racist if his family was fleeing a U.S. santioned dictatorship.
I did not read that as racist - I think he was just saying that Americans are usually fat(ter than Haitians).

And I speak as a one legged black lesbian .
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Old 06-07-2012, 16:11   #114
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Regulations only annoy the smart people. The stupid don't follow the regs. So the reality is that you can't regulate this type of thing from happening and only waste tax dollars in the process of making the rules.

I'm sorry but I don't buy that. If the CG had been out there and seen that overloaded boat, I bet they would have counted the life jackets and sent them back in. Three innocent lives would have been saved.

I refuse to write off the unnecessary deaths of three children because regulations might annoy me.
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Old 06-07-2012, 16:17   #115
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Nice try. I lived in Little Haiti in Miami for 25 years and personally knew many families that were in mourning because of lives lost at sea. Your comment that you could fit that many people "if they were Haitian" implies a lack of understanding and a direct insult to them. Why not "if they were Washingtonians" or something like that? Despite your prior deeds, you really should avoid using a particular demographic to try to make your point. There are many poor poor people in boats out there trying to get somewhere, anywhere except where they come from, and they should not be singled out in a thread about overcrowding of a boat by a strictly recreational boater. I stand by my admonishment.

I completely agree. While I'm glad he saved a couple of people, that doesn't make his post appropriate.
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Old 06-07-2012, 16:39   #116
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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I did not read that as racist - I think he was just saying that Americans are usually fat(ter than Haitians).

And I speak as a one legged black lesbian .
You left out the part about being a Midget/Dwarf/Little Person.
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Old 06-07-2012, 16:42   #117
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I'm sorry but I don't buy that. If the CG had been out there and seen that overloaded boat, I bet they would have counted the life jackets and sent them back in. Three innocent lives would have been saved.

I refuse to write off the unnecessary deaths of three children because regulations might annoy me.
I think we might actually be on the same page.

I don't have the same ability to post as clear a message as you have. Hopefully, I'll get better with time.

There is a rule to have 1 life jacket for each person. It is a "regulation". They did not follow it. People, paid a hefty price. The regulation itself did not prevent the accident. Enforcement of regulations already in place is often better than creating more regulations. We don't need another rule about life jackets it already exists. We don't need to regulate something else, the rule is already there. The regulation ALREADY IN PLACE, was not followed.

I wrote "The stupid don't follow the regs"

The smart always have a life jacket per person and even if it were not a rule/reg would still have it on their boat.

How do you further regulate? check in/ check out procedures to ensure that life jackets are on board? See what I'm saying. To regulate that simple rule anymore would become really absurd.
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Old 06-07-2012, 21:04   #118
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Boatowner's lawyer says boat might not have been overloaded:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/ny...1&ref=nyregion

Lawyer was hired by the boatowner's insurance company. Nassau County is contemplating criminal charges, but no one has hired a criminal attorney. Yet.

US Power Squadron uses that dumb length x beam capacity formula, apparently. I think that will change shortly, if true.
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Old 06-07-2012, 21:34   #119
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Not so sure that anywhere it said that there wasn't enough jackets i just believed the children inside the cabin were not wearing any which would be quite normal/acceptable.

Also a previous posting said there were no requirements on loading on private vessels....

Yes that is a very strange formulae......

You know until the truth comes out the boat may well have been suffering from some other problem, ie bilges may have been flooded, we really don't know many details other than the sad result...
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Old 06-07-2012, 21:39   #120
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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I'm sorry but I don't buy that. If the CG had been out there and seen that overloaded boat, I bet they would have counted the life jackets and sent them back in. Three innocent lives would have been saved.

I refuse to write off the unnecessary deaths of three children because regulations might annoy me.
you assume they didnt ahve sufficient number of vests... suppose they did? what then???
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