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Old 06-07-2012, 06:43   #91
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Re: sad news from the boating world

27 persons at an average weight of, say, 140 lbs? = 3780 lbs. I have a 40 foot sailboat that is rated for a mx load of 2.5 metric tons (6000 lbs). I can't imagine loading 27 people on at 31 footer - a gang of them must have been on the flybridge, making the boat top-heavy.

The boat manufacturer probably has a load limit for the boat. And that limit may even be higher than the 3800 lbs or so. But as a skipper - it's just not responsible behavior to have 27 persons on board. As previously noted, a heavy wake would seriously tip the boat and if nothing else someone could easily fall overboard. With a heavy stern, a sudden deceleration would swamp the boat with its own wake.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:11   #92
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Regulations only annoy the smart people. The stupid don't follow the regs. So the reality is that you can't regulate this type of thing from happening and only waste tax dollars in the process of making the rules.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:24   #93
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
OK you're not really talking to someone stupid here. I know life jackets played no role in this. What I was saying was that if they had been boarded and turned back for not having enough jackets, the accident would not have happened.
.
trying to use what if and predicting the future to avoid catastrophes is so far out of the realm of the role of LE agents it is laughable...

maybe everyone who was turned back would have died if they werent turned back...

what a way to win the budgets of future legislation...

they could say they saved tens of thousands of lives each year....

sorry but I dont agree with your prediction...

Im not sure that there werent enough life jackets in the first place.. I would assume there were... as it wasnt stated in the articles I have read...

it could be anything... there could have been mechanical problems.. the boat could have had a leak and the bilge was full and the pump not working... a heavy displacement vessel could have barreled right next to them, as they were all on one side watching the fireworks...... anything.... it could be an act of god....

but please, dont think that you or anyone could or should predict or assume anything then what facts are stated...
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:38   #94
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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...

At the risk of getting all argumentative (again? ) I am a bit puzzled for the call (by some) for more regulations / laws (whether for boats themselves and / or operators).

Although not an expert on US law I would have thought that doing something so outrageously stupid that ended up in people dying would be a crime already (whether that be stuffing 27 people onto a 34 foot boat (did they need to use vaseline?!) or taking the family and freinds for a swim in an Alligator farm) and therefore no need for a boat (or Alligator!) specific offence to prosecute folks.....even if this case not an Electric Chair event, but nonetheless IMO pretty close.
im guessing it is a crime, if you look at the picture in the ny times article, the person is hand cuffed... I might agree that it should be a crime, but to handcuff a grieving parent seems a be 'draconian'... why the hand cuffs, for the LE agents safety? for the alleged perpetrators safety, or to prevent him from fleeing?
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I can understand the desire to prevent such things happening in the future - but given that the current approach (of lots of regulations and inspections) did not prevent this event then I don't really see why even more would help, unless you get to the point of a mandatory pre-departure inspection. and knowledge test . and even then.........

As said many times, you can't fix stupid. But IMO you can (and should) punish it (whether or not nature also does that). and even in the US (due to the numbers involved) stuff on this extreme end of stupidity surely can't be common?, elsewhere with less (or no) regulation things don't usually involve such things - even though proportionally speaking stupidity is evenly spread everywhere .
I am not sure this should be a punishable crime... the parents or folks who did this are not feeling good about this, and punishing them will not make the kids come back to life...

maybe to have them pay restitution to the folks who lost children or the entitites who incurred costs???
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:46   #95
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Re: sad news from the boating world

[QUOTE=bruce smith;984088]That boat could hold twice as many people, if they were Haitians and if they stayed outta the flyin bridge. Low ballast makes the boat more stable, not less.
Lifejackets, boat wakes, common boat sense tells me these are stupid things, it says to me folks were jamming the bridge and the boat rolled down.[/QUOTE]

REALLY BRUCE SMITH, REALLY?

I got a nasty "you are rude" letter from Saucy Sailoress for pointing out that a boater in a thread was an idiot, yet she lets this completely racist and cruel remark stand. I do wish that we could be more even handed when removing posts from long time members, instead of letting what is obviously a very derrogatory remark like this stand. Perhaps Bruce Smith would be less racist if his family was fleeing a U.S. santioned dictatorship.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:12   #96
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Sailing by Haiti 5 years ago, I plucked 2 Haitians from a burnt out Vessel.
A 23 yo women and a 22 yo man. Both were badly burned. I saved their lives , at no small risk to my own.
My karma is good. My comment is not racist.
There were 50 people on a 28 foot Cigarette type. The problem happened when they tranfered fuel at sea, not tipped over.

http://www.sailmagazine.com/thirsty-fishermen
link to sail mag article written by my wife
ps , your boat is ugly
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:22   #97
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Nice try. I lived in Little Haiti in Miami for 25 years and personally knew many families that were in mourning because of lives lost at sea. Your comment that you could fit that many people "if they were Haitian" implies a lack of understanding and a direct insult to them. Why not "if they were Washingtonians" or something like that? Despite your prior deeds, you really should avoid using a particular demographic to try to make your point. There are many poor poor people in boats out there trying to get somewhere, anywhere except where they come from, and they should not be singled out in a thread about overcrowding of a boat by a strictly recreational boater. I stand by my admonishment.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:41   #98
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Another " Particular demographic" would not help in pointing out that many, many vessels are overloaded far beyond this particular 34'er, and make ocean voyages, because Haitians do it , not Washingtonians.
My point , from the beginning , is that the weight of 27 people is not enough to tip the boat. The weight of 50 people would not tip the boat , unless they were all on deck or many in the bridge.
What would happen to our bona fide "cruising " boats if the keel were on deck?
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:44   #99
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Except you may have people on board that know nothing of boats. While we can look at it and say 27 is way too many, someone who knows nothing of them wouldn't necessarily know that. Maybe all they've seen is a ferry or something and saw how many people those hold, felt they were crowded and saw this as being similar.

Captain and only the Captain is 100% to blame for the situation.
Let's get something straight here. Unless the operator of the boat holds a Coast Guard captain's license, he is the "Operator" not the "Captain". Using the term "captain" for this guy is an insult to licensed captains.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:47   #100
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Just say you "misspoke" in making light of the terrible tragedy in the exodus from Haiti by comparing them to these well educated and fed Americans who do this for no reason other than seeking pleasure. It isn't hard, you can do it.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:49   #101
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Re: sad news from the boating world

type "overcrowded boat" into google chrome images and you get
https://www.google.com/search?sugexp...IZLh0wGCmaXgBg

Then "overcrowded boat in washington dc" and get
https://www.google.com/search?sugexp...w=1388&bih=714

I do get the point of what was trying to be stated, thought it is easy to see how some might take offense. We live in a very pc society. In my business, I have to put a specific logo on all of my marketing so that everyone knows that everything will be fair for ANY party involved regardless.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:56   #102
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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im guessing it is a crime, if you look at the picture in the ny times article, the person is hand cuffed...
It does look that way, but I don't think he's handcuffed. That's a watch on one wrist and some kind of a bracelet on the other.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:57   #103
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Let's take a breath, know it's a hard topic to talk about with three kids dead for no good reason.

I see what Bruce may be trying to say but this wasn't an open boat "rigged" to jamm as many people as possible. In this case all added and moving weight ( people) was above waterline. And as waterworldly pointed out, far too many have the same fate as those thee children, and they get no headlines.

**** Bruce, good job on saving those two lives, God Bless you!*****

Cheers,
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:11   #104
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Re: 4th of July Tragedy!

Last tweet from the passengers: "Darwinning!"

Seriously, even if you know NOTHING about boats, would not the noticeable listing, the tenderness, the Tokyo subway at rush hour crowding...would none of these tip you off?

27 people, if half are adults and half are kids, is probably two tons of flesh on a high-sided powerboat. I would imagine that could turtle in a indoor swimming pool without too much impetus, never mind in the open water as a squall passes.

I just find these stories anger me. Nothing can be learned that wasn't already known.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:19   #105
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Re: 4th of July Tragedy!

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Last tweet from the passengers: "Darwinning!"

Seriously, even if you know NOTHING about boats, would not the noticeable listing, the tenderness, the Tokyo subway at rush hour crowding...would none of these tip you off?

27 people, if half are adults and half are kids, is probably two tons of flesh on a high-sided powerboat. I would imagine that could turtle in a indoor swimming pool without too much impetus, never mind in the open water as a squall passes.

I just find these stories anger me. Nothing can be learned that wasn't already known.
"I just find these stories anger me. Nothing can be learned that wasn't already known"
And this is my point. There is nothing that can be done to change the sad event. There is no regulation that can keep it from happening again to others. There is no justice in deeming anyone on that boat a criminal. It is so very unfortunate, but there are even more senseless things that happen daily that you cannot regulate where the young are hurt.

I don't like seeing precious life ruined and if there are criminal charges that result in sentencing, even more families will be punished.

This needs to be put out there not to punish, but to educate.
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