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Old 05-07-2012, 20:27   #61
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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There is an official screening formula for boat capacity - it is length x beam / 15. For this boat, it comes out to 28. Now clearly that is very high, but according to that formula this boat was not overloaded. Now if there is also not a capacity plate.....

As reported, two of the kids who died were below in the cabin so did not have to be wearing life jackets.

So if the skipper did not break any laws, what could he be charged with? Being stupid is not sufficient, he needs to break a law.

It seems to me that one solution is proper capacity plates on all recreational vessels with a much more realistic capacity. Like right by the wheel in big red letters : capacity 10 passengers.
According to report here in NYC, all 3 were in the cabin. One body was recovered before the boat sank by a local diver, the other two were recovered later when the boat was on the bottom.

Poor kids must have panicked and could not find their way out in the dark, with the boat capsized I am sure they were very disoriented. My guess is the boat was floating capsized, bow up for a few minutes, so the cabin egress was underwater. And I doubt life jackets would have saved them if they were trapped in that cabin.

Kids never had a chance.
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:38   #62
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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The release says 2 people were operating the boat.

The boat capsized so weight was an issue.

They were watching fireworks so possibly/maybe favoured one side of the boat for viewing.

Jackets were mainly on.

No alcohol was involved.

Outside influence was possibly a wave or weather.

No way the boat was designed to carry that amount of people.
What release is this? Do you have a link?

None of the releases here in New York that I have seen said some of the things you are saying,
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:39   #63
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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According to report here in NYC, all 3 were in the cabin. One body was recovered before the boat sank by a local diver, the other two were recovered later when the boat was on the bottom.

Poor kids must have panicked and could not find their way out in the dark, with the boat capsized I am sure they were very disoriented. My guess is the boat was floating capsized, bow up for a few minutes, so the cabin egress was underwater. And I doubt life jackets would have saved them if they were trapped in that cabin.

Kids never had a chance.

I don't think anyone is saying the kids would have been saved by life jackets. But if they had been "inspected," what are the odds that there would have been 27 life jackets on there?

I wonder if the adults even knew if there were any kids in the cabin. You just can't keep track of kids in a crowd like that. Many adults drown in cabins under circumstances like that also, but I think most of us are thinking that this was an avoidable accident.
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:43   #64
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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What release is this? Do you have a link?

None of the releases here in New York that I have seen said some of the things you are saying,
The original post has it all in it #1

Excerpt:-
Authorities said the boat party was a group of family members and friends who were returning from a fireworks display when their vessel capsized and began sinking. Two people were operating the boat, and investigators say there is no evidence they were intoxicated when the accident happened.
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:49   #65
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I don't think anyone is saying the kids would have been saved by life jackets. But if they had been "inspected," what are the odds that there would have been 27 life jackets on there?

I wonder if the adults even knew if there were any kids in the cabin. You just can't keep track of kids in a crowd like that. Many adults drown in cabins under circumstances like that also, but I think most of us are thinking that this was an avoidable accident.
No it's not the issue of how many jackets it's the issue of the skipper being aware he has to act in a safe manner. I'm sure the authorities do boardings for many reasons and i would think awareness would be one of them...

In Northern NSW here in Australia we had an almost identical incident with people drowned trapped in the cabin of a severely overloaded boat. That incident kicked off all kinds of inquiries and laws in its wake.

Theres a vast gap between incident and accident this was an incident.
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:53   #66
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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The original post has it all in it #1

Excerpt:-
Authorities said the boat party was a group of family members and friends who were returning from a fireworks display when their vessel capsized and began sinking. Two people were operating the boat, and investigators say there is no evidence they were intoxicated when the accident happened.
OK, thanks. I wonder who the two operators were. Presumably one was the owner.
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:55   #67
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Let's hope the Nassau County Police who were patrolling that night have a good reason for not spotting this overloaded boat.
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Old 05-07-2012, 20:59   #68
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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No it's not the issue of how many jackets it's the issue of the skipper being aware he has to act in a safe manner. I'm sure the authorities do boardings for many reasons and i would think awareness would be one of them...

In Northern NSW here in Australia we had an almost identical incident with people drowned trapped in the cabin of a severely overloaded boat. That incident kicked off all kinds of inquiries and laws in its wake.

Theres a vast gap between incident and accident this was an incident.

OK you're not really talking to someone stupid here. I know life jackets played no role in this. What I was saying was that if they had been boarded and turned back for not having enough jackets, the accident would not have happened.

In Florida, you can have a ticket taken off your record (and not reported to your insurance company) by taking a driver education class. I think that would be a good idea for boaters. If some guy takes out 27 people when he has six jackets, and gets ticketed for it, he would then have motivation to take a boater education course. In FL right now that's only required for people born after 1988, so VERY gradually, everyone will have to take one.

But I've taken several general boating courses, and I don't recall anything that would have warned an inexperienced boater about such overloading. ai 6hink in4dp45i4nf4 might have played a role. If he had previously taken ten people out, and had noticed the boat rolling with ten people aboard, maybe he wouldn't have taken 27 people ...
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Old 05-07-2012, 21:04   #69
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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. ai 6hink in4dp45i4nf4 might have played a role. If he had previously taken ten people out, and had noticed the boat rolling with ten people aboard, maybe he wouldn't have taken 27 people ...
Wassat?

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Old 05-07-2012, 21:06   #70
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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OK you're not really talking to someone stupid here. I know life jackets played no role in this. What I was saying was that if they had been boarded and turned back for not having enough jackets, the accident would not have happened.

In Florida, you can have a ticket taken off your record (and not reported to your insurance company) by taking a driver education class. I think that would be a good idea for boaters. If some guy takes out 27 people when he has six jackets, and gets ticketed for it, he would then have motivation to take a boater education course. In FL right now that's only required for people born after 1988, so VERY gradually, everyone will have to take one.

But I've taken several general boating courses, and I don't recall anything that would have warned an inexperienced boater about such overloading. ai 6hink in4dp45i4nf4 might have played a role. If he had previously taken ten people out, and had noticed the boat rolling with ten people aboard, maybe he wouldn't have taken 27 people ...
Why the aggro? Why do you feel i'm thinking you are stupid???? I'm simply making a point there's no need for feeling you are on the recieving end of anything, this is simply good exchange of ideas.....
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Old 05-07-2012, 21:26   #71
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Wassat?

Coops.

Sorry, don't know where the gobbeldy-gook came from. I said that I suspected that inexperience might have played a role. If he'd gone out with, say, ten, people, he might have noticed the boat rolling, etc., handling differently.

When my girls got their driver's licenses, I didn't let them carry anyone in the car with them for six months. I knew friends would be a major distraction. With experience, people in the car become less of a distraction. I'm sure it's the same when learning to handle a boat.
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Old 05-07-2012, 21:28   #72
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Re: sad news from the boating world

Cheers Raku, thought it may be a secret code that us newbies are not privvy to. I (09njh__k@ you.

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Old 05-07-2012, 21:30   #73
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Why the aggro? Why do you feel i'm thinking you are stupid???? I'm simply making a point there's no need for feeling you are on the recieving end of anything, this is simply good exchange of ideas.....

No aggro? See the smiley face? You explained to me about how lack of life jackets did not cause this problem. I think we all get that. I mentioned life jackets but I never said that they would have made a difference in this case. I was making the point that a timely boat inspection by the CG might have prevented this. I sail out of a small coastal town, and the town has only one water police boat. That boat was out the night of July 4. I didn't see any Coast Guard but I wasn't looking for them. Haven't heard of anyone being boarded, and plenty of boats had a lot of people on them.

I'm glad we didn't. We ended up with a sequence of problems to solve, and the inevitable desire of people who have never sailed before wanting to help. We had my "favorite" (not) newbie situation -- two boats tied up, the newbie unties our end -- and doesn't let go of the line even though the boats are now moving apart. Oops.

I really meant the smiley face. I do now, too.
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Old 05-07-2012, 21:32   #74
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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Cheers Raku, thought it may be a secret code that us newbies are not privvy to. I (09njh__k@ you.

Coops

Ohhhh -- you didn't order your secret decoder ring!!!

What is that on your avatar -- a dolphin jumping with a COW? I tried to make it bigger but couldn't.
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Old 05-07-2012, 21:33   #75
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Re: sad news from the boating world

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No aggro? See the smiley face? You explained to me about how lack of life jackets did not cause this problem. I think we all get that. I mentioned life jackets but I never said that they would have made a difference in this case. I was making the point that a timely boat inspection by the CG might have prevented this. I sail out of a small coastal town, and the town has only one water police boat. That boat was out the night of July 4. I didn't see any Coast Guard but I wasn't looking for them. Haven't heard of anyone being boarded, and plenty of boats had a lot of people on them.

I'm glad we didn't. We ended up with a sequence of problems to solve, and the inevitable desire of people who have never sailed before wanting to help. We had my "favorite" (not) newbie situation -- two boats tied up, the newbie unties our end -- and doesn't let go of the line even though the boats are now moving apart. Oops.

I really meant the smiley face. I do now, too.
Thats cool i just didnt want you to feel offended because there's no intention, how do you post a picture here in this thread iv'e got it in Iphoto, its of an overloaded charter sailing boat, i took the pic three months ago... cheers
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