Non-Sailor Looking For Advice!!

[redhead]

I won't get into the encourage/discourage debate. You seem like an intelligent person with a WA dream who needs to overcome obstacles to attain it. I was the same and here we are years later living on our boat and sailing. So it's really dependent on how dedicated you are to your vision, isn't it?

I Googled "veteran PTSD sailing" and many sites came up. I checked out www.warriorsailing.org and there are many others. It may put you in touch with others who are "in the same boat" as yourself. Seems like good therapy and a great way to learn sailing -

Good luck to you all.

[endlesspursuit]

JJ, Good for you to be planning the next part of your life. Even if it takes twice as long. It has me. Ken, college isn't the only way. Trade schools are becoming more important than ever. Wait until you pay a plumber more than your doctor. At 18 I was gone from home and never looked back. And JJ I'm also looking for a cat. Good luck in your endeavors and Thank You for your service. O and Ken I'll pay cash.

[RobertoD]

Jensen, you are a brave man, as your history shows, and 12 children attests to. You also have started with a planned approach, and although not complete, your planning shows you are not taking this change in your life lightly. There are some very good planning comments above, and I also suggest looking at a larger monohull rather than a cat.
From a PTSD standpoint, you are also on the right track. THERE ARE SEVERAL PROGRAMS IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE USA (and elsewhere) WHERE SAILING IS USED AS PART OF PTSD TREATMENT! As a trained CISM practitioner, and while not involved of any PTSD program, I can attest to the positive benefits of sailing, although that depends on the individual.
There are also many examples of families who have brought up children in a cruising lifestyle, using homeschooling programs. Many have written books about their experience - find and read some! In almost every case I have read about, the parents attest to the great broadening and learning experiences their travel have instilled in their children - and they have benefitted from.
It will not be smooth - many will have negatives- but carry on. You have made a good start (but only a start), and I commend you.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "We're so far from being ready that making decisions about them seems foolish/pointless."

Never was truer word spoken :-)!

Your dream is ambitious beyond anything I've seen in this forum heretofore. That doesn't NECESSARILY mean that it's unattainable, but it DOES mean that you'd better be damn sure that you know what you are doing, and that you don't get your butt before your tea kettle!

Your health issues are, IMO, not TERRIBLY apposite to this discussion. You need to take care of them for reasons other than your fitness for seafaring and for living for a prolonged period in a space - a yacht - that is less commodious than many a jail cell.

That leaves two issues: 1) Learning to be a skipper, which is an ENTIRELY different thing, and a much greater thing, than learning boat handling. You do not learn skippering from reading books about boats, or even books about the sailing adventures of others. You learn it from reading books about psychology, and then putting what you have absorbed into practice. Your military experience, if it was good, may have put you on the right track regarding "leadership". Then again, given that a yacht is not a military "asset", your military background may prove to be baggage that you must to jettison. You learn skippering from reading books about meteorology. And then doing you OWN weather forecasting, independent of what you hear and see on the boob toob, every day for years until you become better at it than the talking heads on the said toob. You learn it by... Well, I could go on forever, but you get the idea.

Now you DO need to know something about boats and their essential nature. Start with the very basics. Send away to Amazon for Skeene's Elements of Yacht Design by Francis Kinney. Then, once you've got Skeene for ballast, branch out to less rigorous and concise texts on what it is all about. Get something on the aerodynamics of sails by Marchaj while you are at it. And practical stuff about rigging by Brian Toss. And yacht Maintenance such as This Old Boat (I forget the authorts name just now).

Oops! gotta go to a meeting. More later...

TrentePieds

[burntheships]

Chartering a boat for a couple of weeks is a great idea. However, I will say my family of 3 stayed on our 37' boat with our dog for 3 weeks straight. It was great fun, a bit challenging at times but totally do-able!
Suzan

[jmschmidt]

Get the weight off first. This will prove to yourself, and the family, that your have the drive to zero in one issue and tackle a serious life threating problem. Believe me, boat ownership, not to mention cruising the world with twelve people, will involve nothing but serious problems. You have already agonized over stuff you can't even begin to have the slightest idea about.

S__t can the veteran and PTSD BS. That fact that you mentioned this at all, let alone first on your list of "issues," tells me you dwell in this crap. Get off your ass and move, then talk to the rest of us about boating. Sorry but I'm not even going to say "good luck" on this one.

[akprb]

Looking for advice?

40' RV for three months with whole gang then re-calibrate.

I've met you in Isla Mujera, on the Rio Dulce and in Nukalofa.

It was not pretty.

The budget alone for this kind of endeavor, ignoring the health issues, size of crew, inexperience, etc is substantial. Any cat in any condition to handle the kind of human demands you are asking is going to be 300K at a bare minimum, even a 20 plus year old one. No mention of your resources so this may not be an issue, would be interesting.

"We may not like the lifestyle." Odds are you will not after a few months at anchor in Nassau waiting for parts.

I don't know. These kind of posts come up often, I'm not sure how to take them. Wrote a blog post entitled "Ultra Budget" which kinds of speaks to this question. Link below.

When I say I met you in those places, I met families that were "out there" on a shoe string with little to no experience, four or more children, a vessel that was not seaworthy and in each case it did not end well. The Mexico one the wife left and the dad had the kids with no plan. They just roamed daily and foraged from other cruisers. He was well into the bottle at that point. The Rio Dulce family had an older Lagoon 44 which had broken the forward cross member. He had rigged a contraption to try to make it to Honduras, was still fiddling with it when we left in a puddle of sweat, odds are she is still at Mario's Marina today. The Tonga family a bit more tragic, mother died and father went to prison. No idea what ended up happening with the children. Their story sailing from NZ up to Tonga was a horror show.

Some do make it, the odds are just slim. Be wise.

[TheLastPirate]

Great dream!!! Very achievable. Nothing...I mean nothing is as hard as people make it out to be!! I'm a vet with PTSD. I own a 1966 Alberg 35 (a tiny boat compared to newer boats. I weigh 265 and dropping. I feel better on a boat than on land because I feel like I have a escape route. If I'm somewhere that makes me uncomfortable I can until or lift the anchor and leave. I can find secluded areas to stay, or go offshore and be in the middle of the ocean.
I'd say the biggest challenges are going to be as follows...
Well first rent a boat and spend a couple nights on it at anchor if you can(some of the air b and b guys rent thier boats to just stay on)...do some day sailing at your local marina , as cheap as possible. Look into the vet programs for boating...just to make sure no one gets seasick, or they get over it quickly, and that you can handle sleeping while it rocks.
Then after you feel youre ok with that...choose the type of boat ..yes a 65 cat would be awesome...but as mentioned expensive to haul out, up keep on anything mono or cat is going to be high...but I think with 100% va you could swing it assuming you do most of the work yourself. I doubt you'd be staying at marinas ..I think it would cost too much. Buy old, at a good price, learn as you go, don't be scared...buy it right so if it sucks you can sell it for close to what you paid...that's easy to do..buy a boat cheap..you just have to wait. Set that boat up like a navy ship...each cabin is full of bunk beds..jam everyone in like sardines...and leave the master nice and roomy and comfortable for you and your wife. Stick with fiberglass , easier and cheaper to work on. Buy lots of books, Lin and Larry pardy is the first that comes to mind. Watch alot of videos , movie night with the family could consist of sailing you tube channel videos to get the kids in that mindset. Monos are smaller but cheaper to use and buy..cats are roomier and more stable, houseboats are for people that get seasick and don't like boats...maybe doing the Mississippi on a houseboat could allow you to feel the freedom without having to go offshore...for example. As far as your health and weight...yeah get yourself trimmed down and healthy, but start getting on boats now..and looking at ones in your price range. Hang out at boatyards , talk to the guys doing the repairs , some of them will be vets...talk to them, ask them questions. Help them work for free if you can tolerate it..not all the time...just whenever you show up..and they will take you sailing for free. And you'll learn about repairs. I'd keep a piece of land ..even if it's a acre in some remote area you buy for 5k...just so you've got a place to store your stuff and go to if you need to...like maybe something near a VA hospital you like , with a RV parked on it...in case you need some serious medical stuff done and want a couple days on land to recoup. Make sure you have a couple dingys...so no one is stranded on the boat...the older kids can explore on thier own, you and the wife can go somewhere on your own etc etc...if there's an emergency whoever is ok the boat can get to land on thier own. It's cheap and easy to build a wooden dingy. Inflatables are nice for loading stuff they carry alot and are stable. You could build say three wooden ones that nest inside each other on the bow and have a inflatable on davits in the transom...or deflated while underway. You get the inflatable the wooden row/sail ones are for the kids. Everyone wears lifevests in the dingy...those self inflating ones are comfortable. And make a good harness to fish someone out. Set up something on the boat so you can lift yourself out of the water...a 4/1 or 5/1 hoist...two double roller pullys with a belt device or a peizl asap lock for example...leave it over the side at water level while at anchor...in case you fall in you can lift yourself with one good arm. Or others can lift you...set up a good set of side boarding stairs....not ladder...don't get markquip...they think thier stuff is gold...taje pictures and bring it to your local fabricator...have him make one for a grand or so. But the stairs are they key...make them be able to hold the the heaviest person time 3 or 4...they would know how strong to make them. What else....email me personally and I'll give you my number. We can talk at length about any questions you have and I'll give you my opinion and try to tell you where you may find more info or better opionions.
Bottom line...get on boats as soon as possible as cheap as possible and get a boat that fits your needs as soon as possible...don't wait till it's too late. Buy it right so you can sell it quick and not lose your ass. And boating is awesome , I mean just awesome for PTSD.

[JensenJourney]

Answering a few questions...

1) Yes, one charter won't be enough, I agree. We'll do more as needed.
2) Fairly handy. I've built several of my own homes from foundation up (not things like Sheetrock due to back issues) but I wired the electrical, installed the plumbing, roofed them, etc. I've done minor car/engine repairs, but I'm not proficient. If things seem real serious I do know the local Comm College has diesel mechanic courses I though I might check out.
3) We did have a small farm in the middle of no-where. 120 acres we raised cattle (and kids) on. Loved it. House burnt down and lost everything. So since we're quasi-homeless we thought the opportunity to change was right. Rather than rebuild we will look at sailing... until some obstacle is insurmountable. (Costs, health, comfort, etc)
4) I am rather healthy. Overweight and with back pain, but no diseases/conditions/medications/etc. The shape I'm in is "round" but I am able to train and compete in Jiu Jitsu. I hurt all the time, but I'm not "unhealthy"

5) Considered moving to someplace more sailing friendly, but that will severely cut into funding. We're currently at my parents house following the house fire mentioned above. They spend most of their time travelling in their RV and so we have the home to ourselves without issues. Moving would involve rent/buying expenses we aren't currently incurring.

6) Looks aren't important. For instance, my wardrobe includes all the same type/color of T-shirt and all the same type/color of shorts. They are all I ever wear, because I don't want to have to decide daily what fashion to put on. I'm only in something different for functionality (Overalls and boots for farm work, etc).
7)Budget is currently in flux following housefire... I know entire plan might be scrapped if it doesn't stabilize favorably.
8) Our kids, raised on a farm, are great at accomplishing tasks, getting chores done, etc. They learn quick. They bore easily after learning though... they are kids after all.

9) Clothes could fill up a boat... thankfully no of us have a huge amount of them currently. If there is a bright side to a fire, it is its ability to teach you that you can survive with FAR less than you are used to having.

Thanks for all the advice and support so far!

[sailorchic34]

I think you might want to look at a 55 to 65 foot ( or larger) motor vessel. Reason being with that many people, clothing storage and food storage will be a major issue. Plus with no sailing experience whatsoever, the entry level is far easier.



The thing to remember with boats is that even though it says sleeps 8, it doesn't sleep 8 with clothing and food. Storage will be your biggest concern after finding enough bunk space.

Aother option would be a 75 foot houseboat somewhere in the Kentucky lakes area. it limits the cruising area a bit, but has more than enough space for 10 people.

There's more room in a motor vessel and it will have more bunks. The Galley is larger as is the fridge. Frankly I don't see doing it in anything smaller than about a 60' vessel. Not with all the stuff the kids need. Plus food storage which is a huge issue. The typical 45 ft catamaran will not have enough food storage space for 10 people, especially with growing children and teens.


You're going to want to take a small Charter to see if you the wife and the oldest ones get seasick before you do anything else.

[Sand crab]

Umm.......vasectomy?

[coastalexplorer]

Perhaps Jensen should down size the dream initially? and invest a lot of time and a little money in experience/research?


For example most of us started out very early in life or at least our teen years with sailing dinghies. Finding and purchasing a car topper, or sailing dinghy on a trailer, premising that He has place at his residence to keep it? and lives close enough to a body of water to use it? Could be a good place to start for $1,000 +... With a view to get as many of those children out there learning to sail.



Establishing how many members of the family take to it would seem to me to be the first vital step.



The suggestion about a sail training vessel might have been a bit 'tongue in cheek'
But in this case perhaps a couple of practical aspects to it come to mind. Having been involved in Sail training I know that many organizations offer training Voyages to under privileged kids. At least one or two of the children could be old enough to participate and benefit from that experience. Thus researching possibilities would be a useful expenditure of time.


I good sail training vessel is set up like the slave traders of the past with their holds full of bunks. Generally I would advise against a single person trying to acquire ownership of a vessel through restoration. However by establishing the factual interest of the children to become workers and crew. a team that size could achieve ownership and operation of a vessel of the size that would be required. For about the same cost as buying and maintaining a house? Providing the oldest members of his family stay actively interested and involved, even channeling their eventual incomes into it.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

I think you might want to look at a 55 to 65 foot ( or larger) motor vessel. Reason being with that many people, clothing storage and food storage will be a major issue. Plus with no sailing experience whatsoever, the entry level is far easier.



The thing to remember with boats is that even though it says sleeps 8, it doesn't sleep 8 with clothing and food. Storage will be your biggest concern after finding enough bunk space.

Aother option would be a 75 foot houseboat somewhere in the Kentucky lakes area. it limits the cruising area a bit, but has more than enough space for 10 people.

There's more room in a motor vessel and it will have more bunks. The Galley is larger as is the fridge. Frankly I don't see doing it in anything smaller than about a 60' vessel. Not with all the stuff the kids need. Plus food storage which is a huge issue. The typical 45 ft catamaran will not have enough food storage space for 10 people, especially with growing children and teens.


You're going to want to take a small Charter to see if you the wife and the oldest ones get seasick before you do anything else.

This is actually an excellent idea. Motor yachts can be purchased cheap, and offer much more room with a much shorter learning curse.

[fox9988]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Umm.......vasectomy?

Yes!!
Insurance companies give them away. Without insurance, its a small cash investment with HUGE returns.

[Greg Mason]

Some interesting POVs here for sure. Jensen, if this is your dream, nothing will stop you. You have stated your stumbling blocks and outlined your priorities. You mentioned the one most important word, to me at least, and that is lifestyle. There is no 'small c' level of commitment. I have been offshore with boats that had babies, toddlers, children, adolescents and later teens, all successful finding their way. Schooling, hobbies, private space will all be a consideration at some point. The value of socialization in a case like yours is unmeasurable. I looked at your profile and did not see in which part of the world you live. Pacific Northwest boating is way different than California or Florida for example, and ability to spend time outside the boat can be important. I wish you the joys of discovering and following your journey. If you have military in your background you have already heard the worst, so look for the best! Semper Fi.(yes, I know you were Army)