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Old 14-01-2014, 16:24   #76
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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I think hydraulic systems are really reliable. Problem is, that anything can fail sometime, and in more remote locations fixing the hydraulic systems is still much more difficult, than mechanical or electrical systems.

This vessel will not have hydraulic steering.

Unless you really have to avoid anything hydraulic on a leisure boat. Thats goes for anchors, furlers, winches, AP drives units . Always go for electric. Firstly repairing hydraulics at sea or even in a major port is almost impossible. Most leisure hydraulics are custom units far removed from the big chunky agricultural stuff. But anyone can rewind a motor. Futhermore knowledge and tools to dismantle pilot valves and pistons , don't mention gear motors or pumps is specialist stuff, but anyone can muck around with a DC motor

DOnt ask me know I know this , the pain still hasn't subsided.

dave
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Old 14-01-2014, 16:26   #77
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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When we were looking at boats, my wife was interested in safety for her children and grandchildren were far more important the comfort. When she walked on to the Eagle she just know it was her boat even though it was a stark, shippy, ugly commercial finished trawler with few creature comfort. I was not a happy camper
I humbly suggest , that boat doesnt go to sea often!. Anyone can live at the dock, if the boat is big enough.

dave
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Old 14-01-2014, 16:44   #78
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

Regarding the vacum toilet, basically the thing work like that, one pressurized tank take care of the discharge, with a lip seal in the bowl to keep the bowl presurized , anytime the pedal is press , the lip and a plastic ball separate and a vacum is created , one electric pump take care to flush and fill the bowl, the problem with the sealand vacum toilets is the seal and the tank itself, the seal have a short life , and when there is a leak the pump run without interruption , the tank have a fitting in one side to fill it with air if the tank dont have the correct presure, or to empty, the fitting is prone to corrosion and leaks to, special if you mount this tanks in bilge locations, also keep in mind that if there is a leak in the seal and the pump dont stop fillingthe bowl, ohhh boy, i hope you have the breaker handy, if not just imagine the bowl filling the cabin with pooooo...
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Old 14-01-2014, 16:59   #79
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Unless you really have to avoid anything hydraulic on a leisure boat. Thats goes for anchors, furlers, winches, AP drives units . Always go for electric. Firstly repairing hydraulics at sea or even in a major port is almost impossible. Most leisure hydraulics are custom units far removed from the big chunky agricultural stuff. But anyone can rewind a motor. Futhermore knowledge and tools to dismantle pilot valves and pistons , don't mention gear motors or pumps is specialist stuff, but anyone can muck around with a DC motor

DOnt ask me know I know this , the pain still hasn't subsided.

dave
Reckmann made Hydraulic reefing systems include the core, pump, reservoir tank etc... no agricultural stuff there.... i guess.
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Old 14-01-2014, 17:01   #80
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Reckmann made Hydraulic reefing systems include the core, pump, reservoir tank etc... no agricultural stuff there.... i guess

agh the pain, that why I had to fly 1500 miles with a furling motor in my luggage, never again.

dave
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Old 14-01-2014, 18:15   #81
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

I worked a while as superyacht engineer and I was generally unimpressed with the lack of redundancy (2 gensets not enough). Funnily the good things were captive winches, vacuum toilet and a multi-pressure hydraulic system. Bad things were generally poor materials, such as plastic in the ER and a out of date control system.
These vessels are designed for quite a lot of time in layup. That design is not reliable enough for you I believe.
Its not a easy transition from humble sailing boat to superyacht, (your in the middle somewhere), few steps forward few steps back. What determines reliability is a matter for owner/builder and insurer. Asking for gold plated, won't guarantee success.
Starting from scratch to get a successful creation not likely, better I think to go for a design that functions and go from there and add your desired creature comfort.
My own personal opinion is that only established technology should be installed on such a vessel and that technology should have a design life same as the hull, and shore expertise nearby that knows how to fix it for the same period. (Wishful thinking, I know).
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Old 14-01-2014, 19:26   #82
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

Very Good observations Oceanride007 and keeping with the OP’s theme… the wives, who are generally non-technical will get even more frustrated when the ‘conveniences’ promised do not work.

In my SY experience I was blessed with working for very pragmatic Owners who allowed me to spend considerable funds ($millions) in design development and Feasibility/Maker’s List Studies to provide a very detailed specification for the bid process.

This was done before contract pressure to identify the best technical solutions, equipment and execution with the various suppliers and subcontractors.

The end results was always a win-win for Owner/Builder/Engineer with very few failures and my Chief Engineers would stay a long time

The issues are not just in choosing the most reliable equipment, but the key is doing your homework beforehand for proper installation with the best materials and allowing space to make it serviceable.

For example…on a 70ft sailing yacht’s relatively small Engine Room…. a key design brief failure, is to use a sound shield around the generator rather than to properly sound insulate the whole ER. which would allow open inspection and complete walk around access to the busy Gen.

It is much easier/cheaper for Builder to cover-up a Gen rather than address Noise and Vibration Control for the whole ER.
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Old 14-01-2014, 19:41   #83
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

Lots of women mentioning hand holds, above and below decks. I'd like to suggest that you keep the female stature in mind when designing these and cabinets, and etc. We normally have a much smaller gait and reach. Having to over extend to reach the next secure spot can be challenging and it also becomes a safety issue as stated by others.


Showers! Fresh hot/cold water showers on the swim platform, in the cockpit, at the bow, mid-side deck, any where we love to sun bathe! So a midships cockpit with fridge/cooler and cushions? On a boat that large this would be attainable and happiness, happiness=safety because we wouldn't be maniacally planning your gruesome fate because we'd be content.


Good lighting. Comfortable mattresses and seating.


Good God I could hardly imagine living on such a boat. But this is fun.
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Old 14-01-2014, 20:04   #84
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Lots of women mentioning hand holds, above and below decks. I'd like to suggest that you keep the female stature in mind when designing these and cabinets, and etc. We normally have a much smaller gait and reach. Having to over extend to reach the next secure spot can be challenging and it also becomes a safety issue as stated by others.

One added solution is to design the counter top fiddle so that it can serve as a secure handhold.
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Old 15-01-2014, 03:01   #85
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Originally Posted by Oceanride007 View Post
I worked a while as superyacht engineer and I was generally unimpressed with the lack of redundancy (2 gensets not enough). Funnily the good things were captive winches, vacuum toilet and a multi-pressure hydraulic system. Bad things were generally poor materials, such as plastic in the ER and a out of date control system.
These vessels are designed for quite a lot of time in layup. That design is not reliable enough for you I believe.
Interesting really.
Can I ask what make of captive winches weere in use on this boat?
I generally do not have any first hand experience with this equipement, but after some reading I believed that there is not so much problem of reliability itself involved, but rather a scale of trouble somebody gets into when the captive fails?

I believe that plastic shouldn't have a place in engine room... What applications do You mean?
What pieces of equipement are least reliable in Your opinion?

As I posted before the technical problems are not my piece of cake in the project, but it is really interesting topic
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Old 15-01-2014, 03:10   #86
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
For example on a 70ft sailing yachts relatively small Engine Room. a key design brief failure, is to use a sound shield around the generator rather than to properly sound insulate the whole ER. which would allow open inspection and complete walk around access to the busy Gen.
It is much easier/cheaper for Builder to cover-up a Gen rather than address Noise and Vibration Control for the whole ER.
The proper insulation of relatively small engine room may be not so difficult, I think. May be it is regarded not only as a costly thing, but also too much space consuming??? I do not know, I'm just thinking about this...

On the other hand I never realised that sound shield (if of proper construction) can be overly maintenance/service restrictive... It is very interesting point for me
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Old 15-01-2014, 03:10   #87
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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One added solution is to design the counter top fiddle so that it can serve as a secure handhold.
Fine touch, really
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Old 15-01-2014, 03:21   #88
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Good God I could hardly imagine living on such a boat. But this is fun.
It is difficult for me also.
Such a thing is somewhat beyond my imagination, so I'm trying hard to expand the imagination!

It is something completely out of reach for me, so more fun in being involved

I only hope I will sometime be given an opportunity to sail on this for a while, may be for some test sail???
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Old 15-01-2014, 03:24   #89
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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Originally Posted by Gadagirl View Post
Lots of women mentioning hand holds, above and below decks. I'd like to suggest that you keep the female stature in mind when designing these and cabinets, and etc. We normally have a much smaller gait and reach. Having to over extend to reach the next secure spot can be challenging and it also becomes a safety issue as stated by others.


Showers! Fresh hot/cold water showers on the swim platform, in the cockpit, at the bow, mid-side deck, any where we love to sun bathe! So a midships cockpit with fridge/cooler and cushions? On a boat that large this would be attainable and happiness, happiness=safety because we wouldn't be maniacally planning your gruesome fate because we'd be content.
Very good points

I do believe making a boat an enjoyable and straightforward in use place of leisure and relax sound like one of the keys to the success
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Old 15-01-2014, 03:29   #90
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Re: Feel of safety, feel of comfort

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The wives, who are generally non-technical will get even more frustrated when the ‘conveniences’ promised do not work.
My believe is that generally any system failures are undermining the positive attitude regarding psychical reception of the situation.
So they are devastating for the feel of safety and feel of comfort, especially for the less experienced persons on board.
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