Feel of safety, feel of comfort

[DoubleWhisky]

Hi Mark

I used to think about myself as a kind of rhinoceros (at least in male vs male situations), so not very afraid of African Hunting Dogs

I didn't want to alienate anybody, just wanted to point out that I'm looking for the first hand advice of specific group of CF Members. Didn't want anybody to loose time in good faith effort to help

Will try my luck

[Cuttyhunk]

A couple of things come to mind:

good handholds on deck well forward. My current boat has them and I really appreciate them. It is lacking, however, in handholds at the mast or a mast pulpit or whatever you call it, as some boats have, to let you brace yourself there.

Bigger winches than you might consider sufficient for your average man. I am ok with our winches, but I've known some smaller women who struggle when cranking in. In general, I believe in using leverage and mechanical advantage wherever possible, and I appreciate not having to channel my inner linebacker on the boat.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Thinking about this has made me wonder whether the folks who design boats for the charter trade solicit input from women, and the crop of Hunter, Bavaria, Hansa, Beneteau, to name a few, boats already reflect this input. Go look at them for what makes a good impression on "women". Look at catamarans, too.

Ann, very, very nicely expressed thoughts. Thanks.

My understanding is that many of the newer crop of boats have been designed just that way. There is, however, the corresponding reply from veteran cruisers that the impact of "interior" appointments has had a large affect on hull form and its inherent modifications to sailing comfort (i.e., long and narrow vs. wide beam carried aft). Potential additional compromises or changes occurred in the practical elimination of good sea berths as a result of interior accommodation plans.

I'm also still not sure, to the OP, whether the things you consider "comforts" are the boat's design or, as Dave mentioned, the creature comforts like appliances. Can you qualify a bit?

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I'm also still not sure, to the OP, whether the things you consider "comforts" are the boat's design or, as Dave mentioned, the creature comforts like appliances. Can you qualify a bit?

I meant design, but not so much a general design, as details.
For example (and just an example):
Shallow companionway vs. steeper one. It is possible to substantiate the view that somewhat steeper companionway is in the matter of fact safer to negotiate while underway (with good handholds of course). Somebody can argue otherwise.
But which one gives more of the intuitive feel of safety and feel of comfort to the most???

Next example. Storage in the cabins. What is preferable for the feel of comfort for most? Lockers, or drawers? Let's assume we do have enough space to make a choice as we wish. We are not talking about small boat here.

And so on, so on, so on... More input, the better

And no, we are not talking about appliances. Such a question I would had ask to all the members, not specifically women

And I'm pretty sure that Bavaria, Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hanse and so on are all happy to address the women wishes and ideas. Especially the wishes and ideas of non-yet-sailing women... The way to expand the market...

We are talking here regarding small scale production, so the views of actually sailing women are of interest

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=DoubleWhisky;1438833...I didn't want to alienate anybody, just wanted to point out that I'm looking for the first hand advice of specific group of CF Members. Didn't want anybody to loose time in good faith effort to help [/QUOTE]

I wonder why you would limit a conceptual design discussion to only females when addressing their specific psychological-onboard preferences.

Having attended a number of design symposiums where this very subject was discussed in detail by the world’s leading architect/designers... (Both male and female) I could offer some very interesting insight and solutions.

However, I will respect your request not to contribute.

[Kenomac]

I just asked my wife your question, and here are HER thoughts on what makes HER feel safe on our present boat, items which must have been lacking on our last boat.... Because on that boat... she was always nervous.

1. She likes a center cockpit, feels safe in the center of the boat, not hangimg out near the stern where she feels that she might fall off or we might take a wave.

2. She like the teak decks, they're not slippery like non-skid.

3. Pam likes the feel of a heavy boat and he way it goes through the water.

4. Prefers a boat that doesn't heal as much and as quickly as a light boat with high freeboard. She doesn't "feel" that the boat is going to tip over.

5. She also likes rigging that looks heavy duty.

6. A well organized interior that doesn't spill all it's contents to the other side of the boat everytime it heals.

7. Cushions that don't slide off the seats when the boat heals.

8. Prefers low freeboard, it's easier to board the boat and easier on HER knees.

This list is straight from the wife, don't bother presenting arguments if you disagree... She doesn't read the forum.

Ken

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I wonder why you would limit a conceptual design discussion to only females when addressing their specific psychological-onboard preferences.

Having attended a number of design symposiums where this very subject was discussed in detail by the world’s leading architect/designers... (Both male and female) I could offer some very interesting insight and solutions.

However, I will respect your request not to contribute.

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Dear Gentlemen – please be so nice and do not tell my about Your guesses regarding Ladies feelings.

I just asked for not making this thread a kind of guessing game, as some earlier threads went such a way.
And of course I will appreciate all non-guessing-game contribution to the thread - gender regardless

[Stu Jackson]

Companionway steepness: Perhaps an example or two would suffice.

1. The Catalina 34 & 36 boats are very, very similar except for the below decks arrangements. The C34 has a starboard galley and sloping teak (“wall”) trim on BOTH sides (equal visually and dimensionally, one side for the aft head to and the aft cabin to the other), the stair steepness is what I could call “generous” and easy. The C36 has a port galley with head forward and the starboard side is a teak “wall,” with significantly steeper steps, so the port side is essentially “open” to the galley below. The PERCEPTION is (even with good handholds on both boats) one of less “stability” on the way down on the C36.

2. Many builders, like Hunter and Beneteau, use stainless steel stringers with treads bolted to them. This creates a more “open” area at the companionway down below, compared to the ‘stairs on the C34s & C36s, which have wooden stringers that visually “seem” to be more “solid.” Those ss stringer steps also often have curved or angled sides to the treads for secure footing when heeled. The wood sided flat steps work just fine for many, since one can wedge a foot into the 90 degree angle between the tread and the wooden stringer.

Point being that visual perception, as well as “steepness” can determine or result in the design goal of security when descending. There are also the other inherent architectural issue of pitch (the real word for steepness) and tread width, based on measured performance for stair design and human comfort.

It seems to me that these kind of “ergonomic” issues are part of basic naval architecture that may not warrant “reinventing the wheel.”

Other issues you describe seem to be, perhaps, one of personal preferences, such as storage, as you mentioned. Some prefer shelving, others drawers. For example, our C34 was by early skipper’s view “notorious” for the LACK of storage space near the galley. However, just across the cabin was a hanging locker, which also happens to be just forward of the aft head that most skippers use to hang wet gear instead of the non-draining locker. As a result, many skippers have re-utilized that hanging locker by installing shelving of various types (i.e., flat plywood shelves, metal shelves, slide out) that essentially eliminate the storage “problem.” While some would consider the C34 a day sailor, many of our skippers have traveled long distances (i.e., Vancouver, BC to Mexico, six month trip). This is certainly is not blue water, but reasonably extended cruising that requires stores of provisions as well as spares (I recall a post just this week of a skipper with a 35 foot boat who wondered where he could find space to carry a gallon or two of distilled water for his batteries! J).

Good luck.

[GILow]

I can comfortably paraphrase my wife in this situation, who would state that the most important thing to her is safety rails, and good high ones at that.

And when reading the next bit, please understand that my son is 12 and so we have lots of friends with young children aboard, anywhere from 5 years old up.

Almost without fail the mums on the boat (those with or without sailing experience) have commented positively about our safety rails, and how much more secure they felt as otherwise they worry about the kids on the boat. I find this interesting as I would say that all the dads we have aboard are just as concerned for the wellfare of their children, but they seem utterly unphased about the precense or otherwise of safety rails.

I have observed no other "pattern" of gender biased preference around the boat. Nothing about the precipitous drop from the cockpit to the bowels of the boat, nothing about the frequency of good hand holds, nothing about kitchen ergodynamics and nothing about the ruddy great big horizontal pole that sweeps across the boat attempting to decapitate the unwary. Just comment after comment about the safety rails.

Could be a clue.

Matt

[Pelagic]

Specific design notes that were found to be a higher priority for women in larger yachts.

Wind and Sun protection
Mosquito screens
Ease of access to both boat and tender and an angled-treaded swim ladder.
Good handholds, secure seats on a dry tender.
Walk in cockpit and good look-out visibility when sitting down
Prefer 4 step interior level changes rather than 8 step as it made food service easier.
Attention to privacy (both visual and sound) for toilets and their stateroom.
Multifunctional use of the extra guest cabin for their needs.
They appreciate a self-contained engine room to keep the accommodations intact.
They hate heavy teak shower grills and lack of water.

[downunder]

Would affirm the high rails and plenty of handholds as raised by others.

[JPA Cate]

Companionway steps: steep, good hand holds, good foot bracing

Storage: the more the merrier! We have about 20, on a 46' boat. Love 'em.

Look at DoubleWhisky's boat! He got his wife's input for that one!

Ann

[StuM]

> Look at DoubleWhisky's boat!

DW was the OP who posed the question

[Kenomac]

Regarding the companionway steps, my wife said she prefers a steep ladder with solid secure wood handholds over our previous staircase style steps which had a metal railing and were less steep. Interior ergonomics are also important with lots of handholds throughout. She likes a large shower that the prior boat had, and the capacity to make unlimited water, especially hot water.

She likes fancy modern curtains/blinds on the windows. She wants to add them on our boat, but they're too expensive and I'm not sailing up toThe UK for a custom fitting for the ones she wants.

The washing machine is an item she always thought we could do without having, until...... She had one, and now she would never be without one. It's sooo convenient.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

She likes fancy modern curtains/blinds on the windows. She wants to add them on our boat, but they're too expensive and I'm not sailing up to the UK for a custom fitting for the ones she wants.

Hi Kenomac!
Thank You a lot. Can You post a link for these fancy curtains may be???

Best regards to both of You

Tomasz.