Family of 6 circumnavigaton

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

.......

El Pinguino. Excellent thoughts. I did not miss your post the first time. So from what I gather you are saying is that the problem on the cape is finding a good protected anchorage. So day trips while docked at a marina would be the best way to visit Cape Horn.....

Keep the comments coming!

Justin

Marinas are thin on the ground ( ie non-existant) I'm afraid ... Pto Williams to the Horn and back can take between 3 days and three weeks......... and in Ush and Williams its a bit 'dog eat dog' in the high season.

There are plenty of anchorages that larger boats can use but I am a firm believer in 'make the land your friend'. The bigger your boat the more likely you will be anchored out in the windy bits. Largely due - I think - to shiphandling skills required, ability to run heavier lines on two-handed boats, etc etc, Still quite do-able although the larger the boat the faster they seem to go through the channels.
The main issue about TdF and Patagonia is having a boat that you are confident will get you there. Once there the main issue is staying warm while cutting down on the condensation. I'm a great believer in living at ambient.....


In the second pic we have two shore lines out plus the anchor.....

[category4jay]

Cat vs mono debate question. Yes I do believe this is relevant to the OP's original request. Regarding safety I personally disagree with the common generalization that "if a sailboat tips over its eventually going to sink but a cat can't sink- it will only float upside down." That being said you would think that both cats and monos are only as safe then as the Captain at the helm. Right? So here is the question. All of my research has indicated that ALL of the capsized cats that I could find were the result of a crew having too much sail up in rough seas and extremely windy conditions. Is that a false assumption. Can a 45 to 50' sound catamaran tip over if the sails are not raised? And I'm talking very rough conditions NOT Perfect Storm or Rogue Wave scenario. I guess I'm still trying to figure out what truly is a safer type of vessel overall if sailed cautiously and as designed.

[category4jay]

Belaurora,
Let me first tell you I wish you and your family the very best of luck in your journey and quest to circumnavigate. I agree with others in that your kids will cherish the time spent on-board for the rest of their lives. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard first hand accounts of successful family cruising stories. Most importantly though I'm not sure you know how truly fortunate you are in that your wife is on board. There are many people out there who's spouses are not on board the plan. You Sir are absolutely blessed to have that good fortune. All the other little battles you will encounter along the way will be worked out but you have already won the War.

[El Pinguino]

For the sort of voyage in prospect - which includes TdF/Patagonia and Alaska - I do not believe anyone needs an 'expedition yacht'. For South Georgia and the Peninsula maybe... for the other places - no.

What you need is a well found and well equipped yacht that can handle a bit of weather... nada mas.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

For the sort of voyage in prospect - which includes TdF/Patagonia and Alaska - I do not believe anyone needs an 'expedition yacht'. For South Georgia and the Peninsula maybe... for the other places - no.

What you need is a well found and well equipped yacht that can handle a bit of weather... nada mas.

Ping,

I think it is really COOL what you are doing or have done and places you have gone in your boat.

And, speaking of cool…..

Since you like to keep your boat at ambient temperature (I understand to avoid condensation)….if I was a crew member on your boat there are a few more things I might "need" …. some electric heating socks, electric blanket, and lots of hot grog!

To ALL Forum Members: Make sure you look into the World Cruising Wiki (see tab for it on the CF top menu) and go look at the great content that El Pinguino has already posted there. Good stuff to read and it is available for free! http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Chile

And, I give a great big THANKS to El Pinguino for making all that content available to us all (for free). His experience cruising that part of the world is admirable and enviable.

[JPA Cate]

El Pinguino,

Lovely pics. Big Wow!

Are there any production boats (other than your own), cat or mono, that you would recommend? You've more ocean miles than me, and I suspect, more experience of boats in general than I have, and would be better positioned than me to talk about coping with the climate in TdF, too. Also, opinions on the condensation issue. Friends who took their Qld. boat to Alaska, insulated the interior of the hulls above the waterline, and installed Webasto forced air heating, and the whole of it was a huge job. If you had a cat, you'd have all that work to do on both hulls.

Belaurora,

The factor about seasickness that your spread sheet seemed to ignore, to me, is that it is not only that one may feel nauseous, but one often feels just totally yucky, like you have a bad case of the flu, or the nausea that can accompany a migraine. It can be light, and no big deal, but it can be very difficult to cope with. Old cruisers joke about "find some dry land and sit under a tree." Being seasick can take all the fun out of a voyage. And yes, there are effective ways of addressing it.

Cheers, guys. We're heading offshore today, and I'll be gone from the internet for the duration, perhaps as long as 3+ months.

Ann

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by chall

Parenting is pretty much just 20 years+ of sober consideration isn't it whether you do it on land or in a boat? We intend on doing something very similar to the OP. Trust me plenty of time is being spent soberly considering and mitigating the risks.



Can't we have this discussion without getting Rebel Hearted ?

Lessons to be learned from RH? Absolutely. Emphatic proof why only retirees in really big boats should be cruising around the world? No.

+1...

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by category4jay

. Can a 45 to 50' sound catamaran tip over if the sails are not raised? And I'm talking very rough conditions NOT Perfect Storm or Rogue Wave scenario. I guess I'm still trying to figure out what truly is a safer type of vessel overall if sailed cautiously and as designed.

This question really deserves its own thread, but have a look at ISO 12217-2, which is required for ISAF Offshore Special Regulations Category 1. Section 7 is for multihulls, and there is a detailed discussion of the Bare Poles Velocity(VBP) and Factor (BPF), which is used to determine susceptibility to rolling over in breaking waves and pitchpoling when the sails are stowed. If a design is CE certified you should be able to ask the manufacturer for these numbers. While you are at it they should be able to give you the transverse righting moment and the longitudinal righting moment area.

http://jsaf-anzen.jp/pdf/ISO_12217-2...F_document.pdf

[Belaurora]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

For the sort of voyage in prospect - which includes TdF/Patagonia and Alaska - I do not believe anyone needs an 'expedition yacht'. For South Georgia and the Peninsula maybe... for the other places - no.

What you need is a well found and well equipped yacht that can handle a bit of weather... nada mas.

Ping thanks for that. A consensus of sorts from reading a bunch of posts tends to point the same direction from what I can tell. Most newer boats have lots of experience behind them. Designers know how and want to make safe boats. (Kinda hurts the business if clients always end up in the drink). Going outside the designers intended use for the yacht doesn't mean it's unsuitable. Getting away from production boats into custom steel or AL yachts means they may not be ideally setup for singlehanded sailing. A refit to bring it into line would be my first priority. Does that ring true Ping? Any other thoughts on steel and AL yachts since so many have mentioned them?


DUDE those PICS! I almost quit my job that instant! Man you're killing us over here.

Thanks for your posts.

Category4jay. Check out Mahina Tiare Expeditions. John over there has a list of what he thinks are expedition boats. Unfortunately the same thing does not exist for cats... Yet.

I have searched yachtworld with "expedition", some very cool boats come up, including some that are affordable.

Happy sailing Ann, thanks for your input. Lots can go wrong. Forewarned is forarmed.

Don, thanks for that doc. I was wondering about some of that kind of stuff.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by savoir

What do your spreadsheets tell you about the family getting seasick ?

Probably about as much as they are telling him about being stuck together on a small boat for days on end when your experience is in flat water near Washington DC.

CF'ers will think it's a great idea though but you will be the one out there sailing while they are telling the next guy how great it will be.

No visits to Whole Foods, no cycling, triathlons, visits to the movies, going for a drive. No, just water and constant waves.

Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. That's downwind in slightly heavy weather on a full keel boat. Back and forth, back and forth. Which really means roll to port, roll to starboard, did I say roll to port?

The stars will be great though and you can learn celestial navigation or just depend on GPS and work the spreadsheet.

Why not just get a boat and sail to Hampton Roads and back and see how that goes then in a few years consider the RTW thing. Cross the lower bay when there is a small craft advisory posted though with a NE wind for experience.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

El Pinguino,
Are there any production boats (other than your own), cat or mono, that you would recommend? You've more ocean miles than me, and I suspect, more experience of boats in general than I have, and would be better positioned than me to talk about coping with the climate in TdF, too. Also, opinions on the condensation issue. Friends who took their Qld. boat to Alaska, insulated the interior of the hulls above the waterline, and installed Webasto forced air heating, and the whole of it was a huge job. If you had a cat, you'd have all that work to do on both hulls.
Ann

I have seen so many boats go through the channels and their experiences have been so varied I don't think I could recommend anything in particular. It seems to be more about the people themselves and the preparation of the boat.
When I turned up I was starting from zero and just relied on advice received by thse who had gone before.... still learning still sorting. Frinstance one job on my current list is the insulation of the focsle.
Double glazing the windows is a big one as they will run like a tap if there is alloy involved.... double sided tape and cling film or bubblewrap... doesn't look pretty but works. The windows were my main area of concern.
My hull was just foam backed vinyl over the bare grp... was OK but have improved on that by cutting closed cell foam to size and just taping over the vinyl.... not glued... not pretty either... try for silver backed if you can find it... camping mats are good. My deckheads are foambacked vinyl on plywood panels... I've been gluing closed cell foam to the deckheads.
The ends of the boat seemed to be the biggest problem after the windows so I don't heat and close off areas that aren't being used.

11 years on its an ongoing project.

And yes.. you do need a heater of some sort unless you are going the 'full whacko'...
I have an espaker. What I would dearly love is a couple of 'bus heaters' ( they reckon the ones out of Ladas are very good...) . Opening the engine hatch at the end of a day of motoring is good....

A few pics...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

.... I might "need" …. some electric heating socks, electric blanket, and lots of hot grog! ....

Hot Grog? Its hard enough getting the red wine up to operating temperature....
( photo cropped to protect modesty of crew and to protect me from wrath of crew....)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

Ping thanks for that. A consensus of sorts from reading a bunch of posts tends to point the same direction from what I can tell. Most newer boats have lots of experience behind them. Designers know how and want to make safe boats. (Kinda hurts the business if clients always end up in the drink). Going outside the designers intended use for the yacht doesn't mean it's unsuitable. Getting away from production boats into custom steel or AL yachts means they may not be ideally setup for singlehanded sailing. A refit to bring it into line would be my first priority. Does that ring true Ping? Any other thoughts on steel and AL yachts since so many have mentioned them?

If you look at some of thos pics you will see all sorts and sizes of yachts 'down south'.
Once you are in Chilean Patagonia you are effectively in sheltered waters. Yes the wind can blow exceedingly hard but you try not to be at sea on those days... unless going downhill.....
So really its not a lot different to sailing in a lot of other places.. just colder.

I think that custom steel or AL boats may in many cases be better set up... apart from insulation.... whatever boat you buy will need preparation wherever you end up going...its all a matter of degree.

Some TdF wildflowers, The Beagle Channel in May ( downhill weather), some more double glazing and Estrecho de Magallanes in April( uphill weather).

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

Tingum,
PortClydeMe

Anyway, very good information. Thanks for posting it. Weather in a small plane or boat are just as risky. Good preflight procedures require accurate weather forecasts, same is true for boats. I am so thankful for modern equipment to mitigate those risks.

Mostly all true, except sailboats travel much slower than light aircraft when bad weather (pea soup fog/high winds/heavy seas) rolls in.

BTW I never mentioned whether I have sailing experience bc I'm not sure it would change the discussion. I have sailed with my dad but only coastal waters. However, I have never cruised and the two are quite different.

Sounds like you and I have similar experience. All my sailing has been coastal, and that is where the big rocks are. As for cruising, I consider that term a little bit removed from "ocean passages with a family of 6", but that's just me. I've never sailed trans-ocean. Regardless, it appears that you're thinking things through in above-normal depth. Thanks for sharing, and safe passages!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

My wife and I are seriously considering doing a circumnavigation (or something similar) with our kids. We still have to get financial things in order etc. so about 2-3 years out.

Constraints:
we have 4 kids,
Daughter-8 y.o.,
Son-7,
Son-2,
Son-8 mos.

We are mid 30's right now. The thought is to be mostly financially independent by the time we go (that will happen regardless whether we become cruisers).

Mission:
See the world. While we want to sail the equatorial waters we want to explore the WORLD, so venturing into higher latitudes is something we really want to be able to do. Places like NZ, possibly Alaska, Chile/Argentina( not sure if Cape Horn is a possibility), Japan, UK, Nordic countries, Greenland. Venturing into the S. Pacific is definitely on the list. We want to cruise for 5 years at a minimum. Financial ability to go longer may be possible though.

Having a girl really means she needs a private space for herself. The boys could all bunk together for some time but even that would have to change. So I need at least 2 doubles and 2 singles, with a cat that 's not an issue. With a 40-45 ft mono that seems to be harder to find.

Don't count the mono's out yet.

We are planning a cruise to New Zealand with our 2 kids, a boy and a girl.
In general I don't think girls need their own cabins, I DO think each kid needs their own berth and storage. A curtain would go a long way towards acceptable privacy.

The monos that come to mind for your trip include

CAL 40
CAL 43
CAL 48
COLUMBIA 43
COLUMBIA 50
ISLANDER 44
MORGAN OUT ISLAND 41
PEARSON 40
PEARSON 43
SUNDEER 60
SANTA CRUZ 40
SANTA CRUZ 50

For offshore work 6 people means 5 good or excellent sea-berths, 1 for each off-watch person, plus a place for the on watch person to sit without bumping a sleeper. Better would be 1 per crew. An excellent berth would be a pilot berth, very good would be a quarter berth, good would be a settee (longitudinal benches) that has to be converted every night. Berths in an aft cabin would also be good, the motion at the end of the boat could keep it from being very good.

In evaluating quarterberths make sure there is ample overhead back under the cockpit, it may be more private for users to sleep feet forward, and it may be safer if the boat is pounding so decent overhead is a must.

If you opt for a center cockpit boat with an aft cabin keep in mind this creates additional problems in that you now have to have wheel steering which requires more maintenance and makes wind-vane self steering harder to set up. I'm not saying don't do it, but understand the tradeoffs implicit.

A convertible dinette (transverse benches, or U-shaped) would be problematic. It takes more work to convert nightly and produces a double wide berth is harder to subdivide into singles for use in bouncy conditions, underway or at anchor. Such a berth on a newer boat may have a bench that curves around the back. If the radius's of the curve are not removable the berth will be uncomfortable for anyone not fairly short.

Underway or in bouncy conditions at anchor the v-berth will be unusable so you and the wife will be bunking on a settee in the main cabin.

As I stated earlier, each kid needs their own berth, that means a permanent berth: quarter berth, pilot berth or aft cabin. If you try to put 2 kids in a double you will need to subdivide it, not just for privacy but for safety: in a hard roll a double gives enough distance to fall for injuries to occur.

I listed mostly older boats above because they all have enough good permanent berth to meet your needs. Changing fashions in interior design have moved boats away from the berthing arrangements you need.

I would suggest staying away from high latitudes for the first several years of cruising, then reconsider. High latitudes is a whole different world that you would definitely want a monohull for.

What's your budget to buy & outfit? That will inform the range of recommendations.