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Old 03-08-2015, 00:01   #61
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

I'd avoid the Cyclades 50--they were built cheaply for charter and really not up to offshore standards like the First series or the Oceanis series.
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Old 03-08-2015, 01:02   #62
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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Originally Posted by Jehoshaphat View Post
In spite of his attempt to post a clear and concise question, those who lack the qualifiers that he clearly listed decided they should immediately jump in, question his knowledge, his education, his experience, his parenting skills, and even the strength of his marriage.

I am sure he has gleaned a few grains of truth from the posts of those who actually have experience rather than those who feel the need to assure us they have it or those Monkeys that spread their version of it the same way the chimps at the zoo throw their own feces.

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Not sure what you mean by "qualifiers". With that aside, the OP went into great detail about the children (sex, age, need for individual space, etc. - I think his word was "Constraints"), their intense desire to explore all latitudes from Alaska to Cape Horn, and approximate length of time on board for all involved (i.e., circumnavigation). I suppose that detailed information automatically encouraged personal opinions about lifestyle and hull type. It did for me, although I never offered hull type opinions. He came looking for thoughts. He got some. It doesn't appear that he is currently upset about anything.

Never seen chimps tossing feces. Hard to be abreast of ALL matters.
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Old 03-08-2015, 01:21   #63
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Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Don't forget the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey and DS ranges

Here's a Sun Odyssey 47 that cruised Antartica

Stupid f.....g forum software links to the wrong video. Until I can figure it out, cut and paste this into a browser

vimeo.com/124858722


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Old 03-08-2015, 02:47   #64
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Trying again

https://vimeo.com/124858722

LOL works perfectly fine on my computer, totally wrong video on the phone
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Old 03-08-2015, 08:54   #65
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Ann, Your posts show a great deal of thought. I had already guessed some of the things you are saying about cat vs mono. My spreadsheets for cats prioritize load capacity and bridgedeck clearance. An overloaded cat is way too easy to get due to the ample space. Overloaded cats donít sail well, and I donít believe a code 0 will alter that performance beyond at best 1 kt. Some may have noticed I did not include certain brands of catsÖ If I canít find the Bdc I do not consider it.

Heating is my biggest concern on a cat. Condensation is also something I have considered but if itís an issue it will probably be an issue with either hull type. I also have a few tricks up my sleeves from camping trips in an rv.

Someone wrote above, and it may be the most perspicacious of all, that Belaurora should select his boat, and get to know it, and then decide what issues he would need to solve.

Yep not interested in buying a boat to find it does not meet required parameters. Modding or having to buy another boat may make the trip untenable. My situation and mission is different enough that there is very little information I can glean on what we want to do. That is one reason for the post. Same argument against chartering 6 boats...

El Pinguino. Excellent thoughts. I did not miss your post the first time. So from what I gather you are saying is that the problem on the cape is finding a good protected anchorage. So day trips while docked at a marina would be the best way to visit Cape Horn.

Just a note to everyone, I realize that I may not be able to go some of the places I wish to. Again, that was the point of the thread. Having never been there (Antartica, Tiera Del fuego), I have no idea what to expect. How can one know what someplace is like without ever having been there? Seems like a place where you could ask thousands of sailors their experience there would be a great way to find outÖ

Jehoshaphat, Thanks. I must say I am getting pretty much what I expected. I was hoping for more Boat analysis and experience in the higher latitudes though.

The one thing I have not researched well enough is monohulls except for Amel and HR. Itís hard/ time consuming to get to a boats underlying design philosophy, again, except in the case of AMEL and HR. Beneteau has been a bit confusing to unwind, but it looks like the First series is designed for racing and the Oceanis geared toward cruising. For us, the Oceanis is clearly the preferred boat. Thanks to the posters about that, I am similarly trying to figure out Jeanneau. It looks like the Sun Odyssey and DS. Thanks Hoppy!

PortClydeMe and everyone. I appreciate ALL the input. Some things havenít been relevant. But I appreciate your concerns and thoughts. I know no one is out to see me fail or get hurt.

One of the things I do professionally, among other things, is design insurance policies. I know how to evaluate risk. In the case of cruising, the risk is so low that the odds are definitely with us. As a pilot I know that that flying is far more dangerous than sailing and driving a car is many multiples more risky than either of those. Insurance on my plane was not much more than my car insurance and I only had 19 hours when I bought it!!! Boat insurance is even cheaperÖ My wife was convinced it was safe before I showed her the odds, But after that she got positively ecstatic.

I DID list qualifiers, those with children preferably those with 4+, those who have sailed the higher latitudes, those who have done both. I need most of all the practical side of those two things. However, I appreciate all the comments. There is lots of good advice and a couple things I had not considered.

As I said earlier you cannot have experience in something without doing it. The next best thing is asking someone who has experience. Just like learning to drive or fly or sail. You need an experienced person to teach an inexperienced person. I specifically asked for advice on boats suitable for my family and high latitude sailing. Those 2 things are extremely difficult to find as most folks cruise the equatorial regions, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. I also have other things I want to see like the cherry blossoms in the spring and leaves turning in fall in Japan, the fjords of the Nordic countries, a pod of whales in Alaska, Penguins, etc.

Keep the comments coming!

Justin
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Old 03-08-2015, 09:21   #66
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

What do your spreadsheets tell you about the family getting seasick ?
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Old 03-08-2015, 09:29   #67
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Wow, you have the cart so far in front of the horse! Forget about all the silly spread sheets and learn to sail first. There is much more to sailing than flying. Charter what you are considering buying. Even then you will not know how your family or the boat will respond offshore. There is absolutely no substitute for experience. Advise from armchair sailers is useless. I have seen many planned voyages end in disaster. Listen to the people who have actually been there!
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Old 03-08-2015, 12:26   #68
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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PortClydeMe and everyone. I appreciate ALL the input. Some things havenít been relevant. But I appreciate your concerns and thoughts. I know no one is out to see me fail or get hurt.
You're most welcome! If in your exact position, I'd also want to study/learn everything I possibly could before casting off the lines.

As Tingum and others have pointed out, learning how to sail before departing on such an expedition is a major priority. It cannot be overlooked, especially since you'll be sailing single-handed much of the time. The same goes for time out on the water, and more specifically, the waters in which you plan to sail. I'm not talking about spring-fed lake regattas, but the BIG blue. It's another world out there, and the "unexpected" is what will test your experience, sailing expertise, and coping skills.

In this day and age of people living vicariously through Internet videos of folks enjoying sun-soaked holidays on catamarans anchored off a sandy atoll, it's often easy for beginning sailors to imagine "sailing around the North Atlantic can't be very difficult" or "ocean crossing looks pretty easy" (e.g., "We can sailing along from Africa to the Caribbean catching mahi for lunch... those folks did! What a gas, and fun for all!" Nothing could be further from the truth when the unexpected happens, especially for a family of 6 with limited experience and/or skills. When talking higher latitudes, it's not all "sun-soaked".

For an example, back in August '74 we were out for a fun day off the coast of Maine. When we set off, the sun was blazing. After a picnic lunch on an uninhabited island shore about 8 miles out, the fog rolled in like you've maybe never seen (in Maine we call it "pea soup"), and the seas picked up to 20-foot rolling swells. We didn't have radar, GPS, AIS, or any of today's electronic helpers. We had a family of 5 with a compass and charts, and VERY luckily, a father who had YEARS of of ocean navigation experience. When we pulled anchor, visibility was about 10 feet, with innumerable rocky hazards (i.e., islands with crashing surf) between us and home-sweet-home. We made it back to port safely, but not everyone will. So, food for thought.

Not trying to put a damper on your dreams of sandy atolls, cherry blossoms, and home schooling, just hoping you're thinking your plans "completely" through.

Another poster brought up seasickness. A very cogent point. Things are going to happen "out there", and many times they are going to be things you hadn't foreseen.

He's an example of an "experienced" skipper (ibsailinoffshore) and crew caught between the East Coast US during NARC 2012 on a 48-foot Swan. This stuff happens. Notice the sails and the line off the port beam. The video doesn't do the seas justice. In another video the skipper mentioned that there were 30-foot monster waves with some even bigger, and that an Island Packet on that same run was abandoned and wife lost overboard. The experienced skipped said "F*%k this!", and they turned back 680 miles to the East Coast.



You, mom, and the kids ready for this? It's not a Cessna ride.

The skipper talking about that storm:



Fair winds!
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Old 03-08-2015, 12:59   #69
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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What do your spreadsheets tell you about the family getting seasick ?
Yay I love sharing my spreadsheets!
Interesting question and one I have given a some amount of thought to relative to other medical conditions.

According to research, nearly 100% of (human) occupants of life rafts will vomit in rough seas. 60% of student aircrew members suffer from air sickness at some time during their training. For vertical motion (heave), oscillation at a frequency of about 0.2 hz is the most provocative. Motion at 1 Hz is less than 1/10th as provocative. About 7% of seagoing passengers report vomiting during a journey (Lawther and Griffin, 1988).

So Probability of Seasick (Ps) per passenger is 0.07% per trip. N=6 so Σ(Ps)1-6 = 0.42%. Thatís less than 1% chance per voyage for all six passengers. However, young children are more prone and we will be making many passages so the likelihood is almost 100% that one or more crew will be seasick at some point.
On a per passage basis at least one crew member would be sick per 14.3 passages.

Thankfully remedial actions can be taken to reduce or completely ameliorate the symptoms. Furthermore, no long term effects have ever been noted i.e. death. So the probability of death = 0.

However, I believe your lack of understanding of risk and subsequent illogical conclusions about medical priorities needs to be highlighted and contrasted. Take for example the common stomach flu aka gastroenteritis.

Gastroenteritis is a general, nonspecific term given to a variety of conditions causing inflammation of the stomach and intestinal tract. Its most notable sign is the sudden onset of frequent bowel movements with loose or liquid feces (diarrhea), associated with nausea and vomiting, as well as abdominal cramping, abdominal pain, weakness, and sometimes either chills or fever.

Infectious gastroenteritis may be caused by viruses (50% to 70%), bacteria (15% to 20%), or parasites (10% to 15%) (Diskin). It occurs when microorganisms such as viruses, bacteria, or protozoa infect the stomach or intestines. Two of the most common viruses that cause infectious gastroenteritis are the rotavirus, which often affects travelers, babies, and young children, Ö(Diskin).

An estimated 20% to 50% of individuals traveling to developing countries are affected by infectious gastroenteritis (Bonheur), of which an estimated 3% to 13% of cases are caused by the protozoa Giardia (Chacon-Cruz). (Chacon-Cruz).
Symptoms of gastroenteritis usually subside within 3 to 5 days (Diskin). Failure to improve within 2 weeks should bring the diagnosis into question. For more severe or prolonged cases, the prognosis depends on the organism causing the gastroenteritis and the effectiveness of treatment. Without replacement, extreme loss of body fluid and electrolytes can lead to shock, coma, or death. The international mortality rate for gastroenteritis is estimated to be 3 to 10 million individuals each year, primarily from dehydration secondary to diarrhea (Diskin, Wedro).

We can easily see gastroenteritis does cause death at a rate of between 3 million and 10 million per year often in third world countries but also travelers, babies and young children. 20-50% of individual traveling to LDC countries develops gastro. Letís see if we can quickly take a stab to model this situation without getting too deep.

We only have the rate of gastro cases per trip so letís use each stop on our circumnavigation as a ďtripĒ. Although a full model would be complicated, we can establish some thresholds for each of the probabilities listed.

PGE = .20 - .50 P of Gastro - at best we could make 5 trips before one crew member got gastro. At worst every other trip! Now consider families eat together so everyone will get gastro at the same time.
PGI = .03 - .13 P of Guardia Ė 33 trips to 7.7 trips before one of the crew contracting Guardia.
PD = P of Death
= 3 mil / 7.4 bil pop. =.04% chance of death
= 10 mil / 7.4 bil pop. =.14% of death
The probability of Death from gastro is between .04% and .14%..

The probability of Death from seasick =0.

Therefore I have given seasickness FAR less thought than eating out in LDCís. Furthermore seasick symptoms may be treatable and go away completely once motion falls below a certain threshold. I FULLY expect a seasick condition more than once. However there is a FAR greater risk of eating in LDCís. How many times do you conservatively reckon we will get gastro? A hundred cases between the six of us would not be outside the realm of possibility. How many will require hospitalization?

How well do you think you can sail with seasickness?
How well do you think you can sail with everyone on board having a bad case of gastroenteritis? (and mind, in gastro cases, EVERYONE will be sick, whereas seasickness rarely happens to everyone at the same time)

I donít want to do either but the simple fact is that a case of gastro would be far worse than one or two people being seasick. To ask me about how I am going to deal with seasickness and not how to prevent a case of gastro or malaria laden mosquito bites or many other things FAR MORE DANGEROUS in third world and developing countries demonstrates an incomplete understanding of possible medical risks that may arise on a voyage we are contemplating. I have contemplated both scenarios and more.

Thanks for asking.

I would really like to get back to the thread topic too.
Justin
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Old 03-08-2015, 13:11   #70
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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Whoa lots of good advice and help. I appreciate it.

Budawang,
Iíve seen that vid and several others, thanks. I made sure to show my wife what storms are like to see if I could dissuade her with it. Nope, still enthusiastic!
I do realize that getting into higher latitudes may not be ideal on a cat. A modification of sailing routes and timing would be required.
The one thing I wonder about on the Lavezzi is the load carrying ability. Cruising with 6 mouths to feed means more food, and in general more ďstuffĒ. Thankfully water makers exist now. We will have to be far more careful in loading a Lavezzi. The Venezia and Belize have a better load capacity and we could probably find one at a price we could afford. The Lavezzi just seems to be a great value as you said. Could you give me some reason why it might NOT work for us?
I think you hit the nail on the head: the main drawback of a Lavezzi would be load carrying capacity. The hulls are somewhat on the narrow side. A water-maker would be a must, but you might want to forgo air-conditioning and a washing machine. Not enough space anyway. The standard fridge is also too small, but otherwise it has a nice, functional galley up top.

You can't beat the added privacy of having two hulls, not to mention the sheer amount of space, both inside and out, that a cat offers. I think these will be the critical issues of sustaining six people on board for long periods of time.

It's fantastic (and necessary) that your wife is 100% on board with this. Good luck.
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Old 03-08-2015, 13:54   #71
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Tingum,
Yes, I understand what you are saying. Those points are generally covered other places though. I am not at all against them or what you said.


PortClydeMe

I am trying to be very thorough in thinking it through. It is a lot of work and sometimes the info to be gleaned on a specific topic is sparse. (I was researching on how to deal with trash during passage. The regs for a few places were easy to find but the practical side of reducing trash before it even comes on the boat will be a post for another time.)

Anyway, very good information. Thanks for posting it. Weather in a small plane or boat are just as risky. Good preflight procedures require accurate weather forecasts, same is true for boats. I am so thankful for modern equipment to mitigate those risks.

BTW I never mentioned whether I have sailing experience bc I'm not sure it would change the discussion. I have sailed with my dad but only coastal waters. However, I have never cruised and the two are quite different.

Before anybody asks let's me just get some stuff out of the way.
We also know maintenance is a pretty serious chore from reading this forum. Thankfully, I can weld (TIG, MIG, & Stick), do fiberglass work, woodwork, plumbing, and have rebuilt many engines in my lifetime, including 2 stroke, 4 stroke, several industrial diesels as well as several NG generators. I am adept at troubleshooting and repairing wiring. I can navigate using dead reckoning and charts Fly several types of aircraft. I can sail AND I can cook and fish. Now can I please take my family around the world on a sailboat?

Ok not all that was true, I can't fish. At all.

Seriously it's all in good fun. (I just shut down the welding business, But I really can't fish.)

Obviously I don't think we are ready to go pack everyone onto a boat and live on it while sailing around the world tomorrow. But we will be in a couple of years. The Annapolis boat show is coming up and I wanted to have some specific models to look at thoroughly instead of wandering about and wasting time on boats that are unsuitable. And we are going to do the Couples Take the Wheel.

Keep the ideas coming.

Justin
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Old 03-08-2015, 14:02   #72
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Howdy Justin!

Your original post has gotten a lot of responses already, and I have read most, but not all of them. You have already gotten a lot of good advice from many different sources, some I respect a great deal because of their experience cruising.

I don't have the same kind of experience some members do. So take my comments with a splash of saltwater, preferably from the sea.

___________

My parents took me sailing when I was just a little boy (probably 1 year old, but my earliest memories were when I was about 2 or 3, still held in my mothers arms when the ketch heeled on a reach.)

So, I love the water. Unfortunately, I did not get to grow up on a boat, but if I had a choice, I would have. So, I think it may have a pull for some people more than others (obviously).

IF I had children, I would take them to sea. First I would get as much practical experience as necessary to make skippering our boat safe. And I would make sure my wife had similar ability to control and sail the boat too.
You can learn that stuff.

Considering that your children will be young, I think the big issue is not that you won't have enough berths, but that you won't have enough sleep.

As for choice of Mono vs. Multi?
I would go cruising in either. But, since you desire to go to high latitudes, I would be more conservative and go with a metal mono in that case.

There are boats that have multiple berths and are within your budget and could be purchased for less than your total budget and still leave you some of your budget to make improvements etc.

Or you could possibly build a boat.

I believe you have probably read a lot about sailing and blogs of families. I want to mention ONE family that I read about that really came to mind when I read your Original Post. Why? Well, this family (two parents, two girls, one boy) have spent YEARS sailing on their (home built) boat. They made their out of steel and finished it themselves (or if you read the blog it is never finished). They have sailed extensively. They state they started and continue with a small budget (probably much less than yours).

What strikes me about their story (blog) is how close it seems to what I imagined I would do if I had a family of young kids. Their kids seem very well adjusted to life on the water and they seem to have a LOT of fun and they appear to have many adventures.

I was surprised by their boat when I saw it (because I actually want to paint my boat yellow) because I saw several things I had imagined for my own dream boat. That is not to say theirs is perfect or ideal. Theirs is very "personal" and shows their sense of taste and design.

One last thing about them. In May 2015 they were in Tierra Del Fuego! So, check out their blog and I suggest reading some of their blog. One part I remember that might fit your needs is when they invited some guests along. It seems the guest may sometimes have difficulty fitting into the close confines of a boat filled with a family. So, consider that as you consider nanny and others.

Go see: yachtmollymawk.com
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In addition, as I recall, the Dashews (Steve and Linda) sailed and cruised for years on their various boats with their multiple children in the Pacific. I recommend their "Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia" as a good book to read.

Good luck on your boat choice and good luck on fulfilling your dreams.
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Old 03-08-2015, 14:04   #73
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

" So Probability of Seasick (Ps) per passenger is 0.07% per trip. N=6 so Σ(Ps)1-6 = 0.42%. Thatís less than 1% chance per voyage for all six passengers. "

In yer dreams. Time for a new spreadsheet. Time to quit all this self delusion too. At the first sign of rough weather I would expect 4 of your 6 to fall seasick. Children get it way more easily than adults and women get it more easily than men.

Seasickness of 50% of the crew was the beginning of the end for Rebel Heart. Arrogance like yours cost them their life savings. In similar fashion, if you were to visit Porto Williams right this minute, you would find some equally arrogant people who have also lost their life savings and are being forced to suffer the winter down there with their babies.
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Old 03-08-2015, 14:05   #74
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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Yay I love sharing my spreadsheets!


Edit- Many interesting technical data - End Edit

To ask me about how I am going to deal with seasickness and not how to prevent a case of gastro or malaria laden mosquito bites or many other things FAR MORE DANGEROUS in third world and developing countries demonstrates an incomplete understanding of possible medical risks that may arise on a voyage we are contemplating. I have contemplated both scenarios and more.



Thanks for asking.



I would really like to get back to the thread topic too.

Justin

Sarcastic assanine remark- $12 kb.00

Much technical research- $Time is money.00

Having your ass intellectually handed to you- $Priceless.00



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Old 03-08-2015, 14:50   #75
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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I would add that what I think of as "expedition boats" generally meet pretty stringent standards of build, which I believe to be greater than those of production catamarans--and also monos.

Ann
Ann can you provide a list of manufacturer's of monos and cats (if there are any) that you would consider to be "expedition" grade?
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