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Old 02-08-2015, 12:32   #46
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I'm not against multihulls (in fact I just recommended a powercat to a friend for coastal cruising). However, I'm against mutihull promoters who use the logic that if a few cats (or even a few hundred) successfully negotiate some heavy weather that they are all safer than monos. I've spent enough days on the ocean (well over 100,000 miles) to know that a passage is like a lottery ticket--one of these days a combination of wave and wind is going to hit you that is going to really test your boat and your seamanship.

Showing videos of cats sipping tea and playing dominoes in heavy weather just builds the hubris that makes some idiot take them out in the North Atlantic in the winter or even the spring. If my 'reminders' prevent just one family from flipping their cat near the Azores and losing a child, its worth the flack I have to take from the likes of you.
Actually.. no. You nailed your colours to the mast from the get go when you stated definitely Cats were not safe. After that, in fact all of what you stated above is ratification of your pre judged stance. You fail to mention any MONO sinking in similar conditions.

"If my 'reminders' of a Mono sinking prevent just one family from flipping their Benetau near the Azores and losing a child, its worth the flack I have to take from the likes of you."

The likes of me has just pointed out the total false premise in your argumentation. I dont care how many thousands of miles you have under the sail-your prejudice makes it all for nothing when it comes to Cats.

There are many Cat owners that have equal hours as you and will agree that bad weather will stress any vessel, but manages to circumnavigate safely and successfully However the premise you started with is that Monos are superior and Cats are unsafe comparatively. That is your unvalidated opinion and not a fact.

Im going to leave this discussion with you because I am beginning to see that you are not interested in facing up to your own prejudices.

Its up to the OP to choose whatever vessel he likes and I wish him lots of luck and good searching in whatever hull configuration he decides on for his journey.

Sheesh!
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:52   #47
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Tied up at the dock just in front of me was a family of 6 from Czech. Parents probably late 30's (mother was HOT), 3 daughters 15, 8 & 4, son 7 (my guesses). Not circumnavigating, just summer holidays I'm sure. 35 foot old style yacht, so very cosy inside.

Just before they left the dock to go somewhere to anchor off. At first I did not realise they were leaving as there was no shouting orders or anything. Everyone looked like they just knew what to do. The 15 daughter did the forward line, 8 year old the midship line. The mother wss briefly in the cockpit and I assume she did the stern line but then she took off her top and put on another which distracted me. The father was on the dock until it started motoring when he jumped on. He seemed to just be there in case he needed to push off. At that point I noticed that it was the 7 year old son at the helm. By then the mother went below. The son did turn a little unnecessarily sharp so the stern did get a little close to the dock, so the dad did go to the helm to reduce the turn, but by then it was going to be ok.

It seemed to me to be the way to do it, make the kids crew and the parents can take it easy



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Old 02-08-2015, 13:38   #48
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
A worthwhile read. One of the books that made me want to sail across oceans as a kid and probably relevant to the OPs needs.
Attachment 106528
Rosie leads an interesting life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Swale-Pope

However some bits have been airbrushed out of wiki...You wouldn't really want Mrs Monte to have Rosie as a role model .... Feb17
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Old 02-08-2015, 13:42   #49
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Haha yeah ping I've read that before, hence I'm cooking lunch
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:11   #50
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

The boat you end up with will entirely be based on your budget and whether you can sail it single handed. No matter the ages of the children, you're likely not going to be counting on them to help you -- and your partner may be tending to the children while you sail. Just consider yourself solo with the additional burden of other people's lives in your hands.

Look towards Jaja and Dave Martin who sailed high latitudes with the (33'?) small steel boat Driver. All their children quite young when they started their several year long trip. Read their book Into the Light if you want to read about it or buy the DVD Ice Blink for the documentary they did. There are large (3 or more kids) families who have sailed many ocean miles on very small vessels. A family of 5 did circumnavigate with a Rawson 30. Seems the story was 5 kids but since I owned a Rawson, I can't figure where you'd but the extra two.

An old book, but an amazingly good read about a blended family sailing for YEARS with a bunch of kids aboard a mid-30 foot boat is Herb Payson's book Blown Away.

Right now there's a lovely family with 7 kids, mom and dad living aboard and sailing a steel 46 ft Colin Archer style double ender that they picked up for very little money in the SFBay area and sailed up to Alaska where they're working, doing boat projects, and enjoying life. We met them there and can say they have a great layout that works for them but may not work for every family with 7 kids. 4 of the seven have outboard pilot bunks in the main saloon/dining area. Link to the sailing family of 9.

Whatever your budget, there's a boat that will fit your budget, have room for the family, and work for you. I'd suggest that you inspect the boats you're considering and determine whether they'll meet your needs -- not what others think you might need. We, my husband and I, sail double-handed in a pre-WWII schooner with it's own set of unique requirements and benefits.

The forums are really good for getting additional information about very narrow and specific things -- repair, materials data, how to re-rig something, etc. When you give the forum one of these big picture questions, you get a lot of "other" advise that you didn't expect.

Fair winds,
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:22   #51
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

Some good information and thoughts have been expressed.

Just a note, I don’t really want this to devolve into a war over cat vs. mono. I frequently consult in insurance and I understand the risks of cruising, monos ,and cats. Both have their uses. The lifestyle on either a mono or a cat is far safer than driving a car. Besides I am FULLY willing to buy either. Someone coined the term “boatsexual”. LOL yeah I’ll swing either way. A boat is a means to an end. My desire is for the experience of seeing the world, not to own a boat.

That being said, the vessel needs to adequately meet our mission parameters. As long as a boat fits that I am willing to live on and sail it.

Mark J. My wife and I want very much to spend time with our children. Her family life growing up was not very good while mine wasn’t bad but too little time with my dad. He had great dreams of family adventures that he never pursued due to various reasons. I’ve inherited some of that. We have worked toward our dreams through hard work and fastidious living. See Mr. Money Moustache for how extreme you can get with saving!

Oh those Pontos Winches are very cool; Looks like the kids could be a little more helpful than I thought. Maybe...

Monte, yes you are echoing my thoughts exactly. A bowsprit with a code 0 or screecher seems like a good way to get a nice performance boost. It's on the list of necessary mods.

socaldmax, I understand what you are saying. Our timeframe means we will be leaving closer to the ages you suggest. I actually don't want to go too soon for that reason. I figure we will can sail the east coast, Caribbean and some parts of S. America for the first 6 months or year. Allows the kids to grow up and for us all to get acclimatized/experienced.

Weavis point taken on the First series! thanks
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:35   #52
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

BTW I found a 2006 Beneteau Cyclades 50 locally that I'm going to go look at.
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Old 02-08-2015, 17:58   #53
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
OMG

Try googling "family car accident' and then you'll be thinking that you shouldn't be taking your family in a car, Wait, families die in house fires. Not safe to keep them at home. Hmm send the children too their school, ohh no there might be a shooting massacre. Put them in a MAS plane, oh no, it might vanish in the Indian Ocean or get shot down over a conflict zone.

Safest bet, take them on a cruise and thanks to the USCG they'll be ok :-)

Why take one highly publicised failure and ignore all of the thousands of families who have safely done long passages and circumnavigations.

There are even plenty of cases where new children were born mid-circumnavigation. Laura Dekker was born mid circumnavigation and look how she turned out (MarkJ might not approve )


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I think maybe you misread my post. I was making the same point as you
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Old 02-08-2015, 21:28   #54
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

In the mid 80's in Fethiye, Turkey, I was docked next to a couple who had a 3 year old and an 18 month old. They had been cruising for 5 years; the boat was smaller than the one I was on which was a Sigma 33.
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Old 02-08-2015, 21:44   #55
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

It seems to me that weavis' suggestions of catamaran owners who could give Belaurora advice relative to catamarans was good.

Relative to weavis' and donradcliffe's arguments, I'd like to add that when I and when Don started going far offshore, there were few catamarans doing it. Anyone who reads CF, is aware of the sinking of the Cheeki Rafiki; and also, this year, of the child lost off the cat near Portugal, as well as the chartered cat which recently turned over and eventually sank during recovery near the Seychelles. Also covered here on CF were the losses of the Blue Pearl, and another British mono due to loss of rudder. I think we long term mono people are used to and accept the idea of sinking if bad stuff happens. We've been told for years by catamaran enthusiasts, "monos go down, and cats float upside down," too many times, [and monos don't always do so fast like Cheeki Rafiki, or they never could have rescued Tony Bullimore]. Long time monohull sailors may well carry baggage of aggravation generated by some cat. enthusiasts. Which is why arguments about safe vs. unsafe wind up being more about what people like or dislike than about the real world. I find the advertising for catamarans, "plan to outrun the storm", followed by loss of cat few of us could afford, a bit galling. In fact, though, mono skippers can make that kind of decision, too. These kinds of readings do inform our opinions. Since much of what is written in CF is already opinion, do we need to label ours as such?

Of more interest to me was El Pinguino's post that some of the caletas (small coves) are pretty narrow in Tierra del Fuego, so that larger cats would have less choice of anchorages. El P, what size beam do you think would be too great for comfortable cruising in that area?

One of my concerns about taking a catamaran to the plus 50 deg lat places has to do with the large window areas; I imagine that insulating such a vessel against condensation would be a big chore. I would add that what I think of as "expedition boats" generally meet pretty stringent standards of build, which I believe to be greater than those of production catamarans--and also monos.

Someone wrote above, and it may be the most perspicacious of all, that Belaurora should select his boat, and get to know it, and then decide what issues he would need to solve.

I liked the post about the family of 6 on a 36' mono. Of course it can be done. Whether it would suit Belaurora is up for him and his good lady to decide, and since he's looking in the 50' range for a mono, perhaps they already have.

Ann
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Old 02-08-2015, 22:40   #56
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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.....
Of more interest to me was El Pinguino's post that some of the caletas (small coves) are pretty narrow in Tierra del Fuego, so that larger cats would have less choice of anchorages. El P, what size beam do you think would be too great for comfortable cruising in that area?........

Ann
Good question... I've just had to go and look at how beamy cats are for a given length. Methinks it is more a matter of perception rather than reality.. I've known one cat, maybe 45 foot go through but I didn't see them after the event so don't know what their experience was. Quite a few of the caletas would not fit big monos either.. it would just happen sooner with a cat... if that makes sense.
In either class it would be fairly easy to be 'overboated' down there.
I know some people that say they have been from on end to the other and never run a shore line, I know one person that says it can be done without using their anchor.

As you say the insulation/condensation issue is a biggy.
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Old 02-08-2015, 22:46   #57
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

A 'tight' caleta...
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Old 02-08-2015, 23:11   #58
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

It's clear that BelAurora has been what is so often referred to in the negative sense, a "lurker", for long enough to know how easily a thread can spin out of its intended direction. In spite of his attempt to post a clear and concise question, those who lack the qualifiers that he clearly listed decided they should immediately jump in, question his knowledge, his education, his experience, his parenting skills, and even the strength of his marriage.

It kills me that even in spite of his best efforts to redirect this thread, debate continues on mono vs. multi and whether or not he is capable or experienced enough to even consider doing such a thing.

My guess is, based on the fact that this guy is an analyst who has done more research on his short-list of boats than most do before they pull the trigger, is that he doesn't need anyone to help him decide whether or not he should do this. It sounds like the decision to go has already been made and he is looking for someone who is in a similar set of circumstances to his own (cruising with the family) that might help him decide which boat might be best suited for the comfort and safety of his family.

This guy is no Rebel Heart, that much is clear. His wife is keen to go, his kids will be out of diapers so at least they won't end up in the sink and I'm guessing there will be no bamboo whisker pole on his boat.

He has already done his research, probably lurked his way thru the threads that have any relevance to his own question. I am sure he has gleaned a few grains of truth from the posts of those who actually have experience rather than those who feel the need to assure us they have it or those Monkeys that spread their version of it the same way the chimps at the zoo throw their own feces.

He doesn't need you to tell him how to live his life any more than any one of us can tell him which boat to buy. He's just an analyst who is analyzing any and all data he can get.

His only mistake was to expect to get any objective data here.


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Old 02-08-2015, 23:42   #59
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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I think maybe you misread my post. I was making the same point as you
Clearly, if we were trying to make the same point...

Sorry for the "OMG" in that case
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Old 02-08-2015, 23:49   #60
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Re: Family of 6 circumnavigaton

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Monte, yes you are echoing my thoughts exactly. A bowsprit with a code 0 or screecher seems like a good way to get a nice performance boost. It's on the list of necessary mods.
Assuming Monte was referring in terms of cats. I'm now a believer that a Code 0 (or at least the spinnaker nylon equivalent) is an essential cruising sail. Besides giving great light wind performance, it allows you to carry a much smaller headsail for when the wind picks up. So instead of a 150% genoa you might have a 120% or 100%, perhaps even a self tacker
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