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Old 07-03-2013, 04:20   #106
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Great thread, even though it is an old one. I 110% agree with TS on everything. In fact, I am a psychologist with 20+ years of experience and I more than many other people, SEE these alarming trends in society. I am far from suggesting any hidden agenda in this, we are talking about natural processes, but they are nevertheless extremely negative. I will do my best to try to give my child another options, that's why I am intended to go full-time cruising in a couple years.

For those who believe that children need peers to "learn how to socialize" I would strongly reccoment reading a great book of Gordon Neufeld "Hold On to Your Kids" - it is extremely well-written, and has very deep information about the phenomena itself, it's dangers and so on. My own 20-years practice proves his 100% correctness in every word. After reading it, you will no longer hold to cliches like "but children need peers to learn to socialize", because you will see how the real mechanisms of socialization intend to work (and how they worked up until relatively recently).

For all the parents who think about full-time cruising with their kids but worry about various things, I can tell: do it! It is the best thing you can do for your children, in today's world there are very few opportunities to let them grow healthy and cruising is one of them. Of course, if you want your children to be "normal", then don't do it and let them be with peers, but if you want them to grow into a developed, mentally healhty creative individual - then go for cruising by all means. Yes, they will have more difficulties to adjust to idiocy later on, but does it mean you need to make them idiots from their child years, just so that they will fit later?
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:30   #107
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Bill Burr - You People Are All The Same - How to Raise a Kid - YouTube

Warning: contains salty language!

Seriously, I think taking your children cruising would be one of the best things you could do. They would learn a lot of basic maintenance, cooking and survival skills and if you eliminate or minimize TV on board they would be getting a lot of their knowledge from books and would also be using their imagination in ways today's couch potato children on land don't.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:35   #108
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Sea Frog.

Thanks for sharing your learned insights.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:42   #109
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Back when our children were young we were thrilled with the time we were off cruising with them, though we also would regularly return with time among the larger society too. Our children are now well established as adults and we're enjoying our first grandchild. I would encourage cruising with your children just as I would encourage all parents to spend time with their family. I hope that most of those cruising families are setting out to find adventure together and not escaping in distress. It should be a comfort to realize that the descriptions of the impending failure of society and the misdirection of youth has been pervasive throughout history. Despite the horrors, ninety percent of young people are successfully coping with the world at large and are not subject to a collapse of our morals and values.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:52   #110
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

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Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
Despite the horrors, ninety percent of young people are successfully coping with the world at large and are not subject to a collapse of our morals and values.
Well, if you were "into it", you would be not thinking so. As a professional dealing with human mental health, I have to state, unfortunately, and many serious colleagues agree with me, that the state of mind health of today's members of so-called "western" society is very bad. In fact, professionals are warning that mental disorders are on the rise in recent 20 years or so, and that very soon we will face the time when majority of people will be suffering from various mental ilnesses. I would say it this way: yes, 90% of people are considered "normal" but this "norm" is only considered a norm because they are not killing everybody around them. In fact, this "norm" is a serious, very deep mental illness, and it is getting worse because very deep, basic mechanisms that creates mentally healhy individuals, got destroyed. And this is going to get out of control very soon, I predict that within next 20 years it will be a real problem seeing a truely psychologically healthy, sane individual. Yes, most of them will be "harmless" but "harmless" is not the same as "healthy". I do not want this for my child

Sorry if this sound gloomy or something, but once you get seriously professionally involved in this stuff, you will become amazed and shocked by what's going on in. I wish it would be not so, but facts are there. Of course, majority of people don't even think about this stuff until it is too late and they need serious help, but I have seen too much to ignore it.

And you are absolutely right when you encourage parents cruising and in general spending time with their children.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:54   #111
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Frog View Post
Great thread, even though it is an old one. I 110% agree with TS on everything. In fact, I am a psychologist with 20+ years of experience and I more than many other people, SEE these alarming trends in society. I am far from suggesting any hidden agenda in this, we are talking about natural processes, but they are nevertheless extremely negative. I will do my best to try to give my child another options, that's why I am intended to go full-time cruising in a couple years.

For those who believe that children need peers to "learn how to socialize" I would strongly reccoment reading a great book of Gordon Neufeld "Hold On to Your Kids" - it is extremely well-written, and has very deep information about the phenomena itself, it's dangers and so on. My own 20-years practice proves his 100% correctness in every word. After reading it, you will no longer hold to cliches like "but children need peers to learn to socialize", because you will see how the real mechanisms of socialization intend to work (and how they worked up until relatively recently).

For all the parents who think about full-time cruising with their kids but worry about various things, I can tell: do it! It is the best thing you can do for your children, in today's world there are very few opportunities to let them grow healthy and cruising is one of them. Of course, if you want your children to be "normal", then don't do it and let them be with peers, but if you want them to grow into a developed, mentally healhty creative individual - then go for cruising by all means. Yes, they will have more difficulties to adjust to idiocy later on, but does it mean you need to make them idiots from their child years, just so that they will fit later?
well written!
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Old 07-03-2013, 13:32   #112
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Quote:
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Well, if you were "into it", you would be not thinking so. ......................
Though I am now retired I have definitely been "into it" as a high school science teacher in an urban metropolitan area for more than thirty years. It might be that you are dealing only with those with problems and not a full cross section of our youth. Certainly, the huge majority of people are not being seen or treated by mental health professionals. I've seen the same reponse among police officers who have mostly a problem sector of society in the focus of their profession. I have no doubt that you are disappointed with what you observe; however, I'm also confident that there were people in your position making the same dire prediction two or three hundred years ago.
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Old 07-03-2013, 14:58   #113
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

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Though I am now retired I have definitely been "into it" as a high school science teacher in an urban metropolitan area for more than thirty years. It might be that you are dealing only with those with problems and not a full cross section of our youth. Certainly, the huge majority of people are not being seen or treated by mental health professionals. I've seen the same response among police officers who have mostly a problem sector of society in the focus of their profession. I have no doubt that you are disappointed with what you observe; however, I'm also confident that there were people in your position making the same dire prediction two or three hundred years ago.
Thanks for expressing that. I seem to recall some people of my parent's generation saying the same things about "drug and sex-crazed hippies" of the 60's and early 70's. I remember the civil rights movement was viewed by many middle-class whites with fear as insurrectionist and disruptive to the fabric of society, and a threat to the established order. Whites feared angry blacks. Most of us turned out allright... many of us didn't; and today we have a black President and Oprah is a though-leader for many middle-class white women.

Digital life is changing society whether we like it or not, and the borders we draw on maps are now crossed without any regard by the "friends" people keep on Facebook pages and in blogs like this one. Privacy is a thing of the past... Big Brother (in most governments) is monitoring and filtering everything you view, type, and send online or keep on your mobile devices. So is Google, Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, and Double-Click to name only a few. You have a digital footprint that leaves tracks everywhere you go, even when you're not online (if you carry a cell phone or use a credit card or toll pass).

I have kids in their early 20's who grew up on terra firma and they're bright, ambitious and "good" people. So are their friends, though some are doing better than others (some despite being handicapped by screwed-up parents and broken homes). My kids are WAY ahead of where I was at their age.
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Old 07-03-2013, 18:15   #114
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

First let me say Welcome Aboard! There're not many of us "shrinks" on the forum. There are a couple of assertions made in your post that I'd like to comment on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Frog View Post
"the state of mind health of today's members of so-called "western" society is very bad". In fact, professionals are warning that mental disorders are on the rise in recent 20 years or so, and that very soon we will face the time when majority of people will be suffering from various mental illnesses. I would say it this way: yes, 90% of people are considered "normal" but this "norm" is only considered a norm because they are not killing everybody around them In fact, this "norm" is a serious, very deep mental illness, and it is getting worse because very deep, basic mechanisms that create mentally healthy individuals got destroyed. And this is going to get out of control very soon; I predict that within next 20 years it will be a real problem seeing a truly psychologically healthy, sane individual. Yes, most of them will be "harmless" but "harmless" is not the same as "healthy". I do not want this for my child
Sorry if this sounds gloomy or something, but once you get seriously professionally involved in this stuff, you will become amazed and shocked by what's going on in. I wish it would be not so, but facts are there. Of course, majority of people don't even think about this stuff until it is too late and they need serious help, but I have seen too much to ignore it.
And you are absolutely right when you encourage parents cruising and in general spending time with their children.
The concepts of Good and Bad are relative terms subject to a culturally driven though arbitrary standard. Everyone establishes their own standard as a result of their own experiences, values, and goals. Normal is relative and culturally driven.
As a clinical psychologist with over 20 years of family systems and couples therapy experience I can sincerely state that mental health issues have been prevalent for generations. Itís interesting that your perspective is that things are getting worse. Perhaps itís the context of your practice or where your practice is located. However my clinical experience has been almost the opposite. Certainly not in all cases, but overall the young people I work with are more resilient, more adaptive, and better able to address a range of contemporary difficulties then their parents - and that in the face of living in a significantly more complex world then earlier generations.

I can argue strongly for the significant benefits of raising kids on a boat. Those benefits have been well articulated earlier in this thread. However, unless the goal is for the kids to live the rest of their lives on a boat, they do need to learn how to live in the culture they end up in. That means knowing how to effectively interact with people who may have no idea what the cruising life is all about.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:28   #115
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Thank you folks for valuable input! I am not ready now, nor willing to argue. Certainly geographical location makes difference, and in some parts of the world situation is better than in other, but... I hope I am wrong, and things are not as bad as they seem. We'll see in 10-20 years where it leads us. Meanwhile, I hope to spend at least part of it cruising with my family
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:22   #116
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

I happen to have far more faith in our children, then many here. Nor do I think bringing kids up on a boat necessarily is any better then elsewhere. ( and in some cases far worse)

All children benefit from parental involvement, especially in the formative years.

Parents can instil good moral ( and I dont mean religious) values, and an appreciation of things like education.

One of the key things my wife and I did was getting them to read early and instilling a love of books, each quarter I used to get a small dividend cheque on a small investment and it was always spent on books for them, ( only on the basis that they had to read anything they picked out). TO this day we have in excess of 1000 books.

One went on to do Law and the other Phycology

I dont hold any truck with the notion that it is "society" or "peer" pressure or anything to do with "schooling" . Involved parents that care are the best, wherever they are.

You cant insulate your kids from the real world, In fact I would argue , its very bad for them to do so. Hiding them away achieves nothing. Nor do I see much value in "home schooling" , yes maybe for very young kids, but kids need the social environment of their peers too. ( and as they go through schooling they need professional teachers, not their Mom or Dad trying to explain Calculus)

Yes my kids all went through the usual teenage issues ( boys, alcohol at 14 etc) but their basic value system saw them through. ( As my youngest daughter said a few years ago when she turned 20, who hoo dad, youll never have any pregnant teens dad!!)

Kids today are more serious, career minded, over educated then ever before, They are old before their years. They are cotton-wooled at an early age.

No the solution isnt boats and Id go so far to say that teenagers and boats are very very incompatible. Nor is blocking TV or video games etc. Its all about balance and instilling values. After that you have to stand back and watch then fly the nest and make their own mistakes. Yes you are always in the background, but you cant insulate them from the world.


The vast majority of problem kids are because of problem parents. Its the parents "stupid"

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Old 08-03-2013, 03:32   #117
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

my kids after growing up sailing twice around the world are better adjusted than the parents
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:54   #118
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Frog View Post
Thank you folks for valuable input! I am not ready now, nor willing to argue. Certainly geographical location makes difference, and in some parts of the world situation is better than in other, but... I hope I am wrong, and things are not as bad as they seem. We'll see in 10-20 years where it leads us. Meanwhile, I hope to spend at least part of it cruising with my family
Personally I think that the best thing you can do for your kids is not to live in a place where the kids can't be allowed to be kids because it is not "safe" for them to interact with others (including other children ) nor attend a public school.....those places are fairly easy to identify - they are called sh#tholes .

My take is that kids will very likely do very well out of extended travels by boat - no guarantee of course (but such is life!!) My main concern for the kid(s) would be having parents who are afraid of the world and want to keep their kids away from it......even if not quite at the level of the Fritzls afloat .
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:09   #119
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

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...

You cant insulate your kids from the real world, In fact I would argue , its very bad for them to do so. Hiding them away achieves nothing. Nor do I see much value in "home schooling" , yes maybe for very young kids, but kids need the social environment of their peers too. ( and as they go through schooling they need professional teachers, not their Mom or Dad trying to explain Calculus)

.......

The vast majority of problem kids are because of problem parents. Its the parents "stupid"

DAve
WOW! (on so many levels!) Our 8 year old has 'mental disability' that the public schools "will not be able to accommodate" (yeah, that is exactly what we were told) and thus I have to home school her. She is about the most loving person anyone could meet but her condition does put her in the 'problem child' category on occasion.

So, according to your reasoning....this make her mom and I 'stupid'?

And 'real world', how do you define this? I am actually REALLY curious.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:36   #120
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Re: Cruising with Kids: A Cure for a Disturbing Trend

People have been complaining that children aren't acting or growing up the way their parents did "back in the day" since there have been children.
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