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Old 21-12-2009, 07:43   #46
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Any activity that takes kids away from the comercial and material world and helps them focus on reality has to be a good thing. It instills the basic social skills and will be the foundation for adult life.
Well said, Anjou. Peer pressure and commercialism are two huge factors in the development of a kids life. When the kids are pressured (whether they know it or not) into conforming with the ideals of others who may not have their best interests in mind, it makes it difficult for them to know which way will turn out best for them in the long run. As has been said here, parents who take a very strong, proactive role in their life will be a great benefit to them. If the distractions can be removed or at least moved further back from the kids, it will help that much more. Some say that the kids "need" to be in that whole mix (commercialism, peer pressure, etc) to be able to develop social skills to be able to deal with it later in life.
However, this is still their formative years that we are talking about - immersing them in these things is far more likely to cause them to submit to peer pressure rather than resist it. Not in every case, but in a good percentage of cases. It has been likened to feeding a kid poison to help them develop a resistance to it.
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Old 22-12-2009, 13:43   #47
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Be careful with that line of thought.

Some here seem to think that no socalization is required.

Maybe so.

However, there is a certian advantage to a shared culture. Even a sorry, crazy physco culture like the American one.

I would know. I didn't cruise as a kid, but I was sheltered from society. I missed out on most of my "generation"'s pop culture. Now that I'm a young adult, it's not always that easy to relate to other indivdules at work.

My wife was home schooled for a significant part of her education. She never developed the confidence in talking to, and being around people of her own age. She places much of the reason for this on the homeschooling.

it maybe be important to shelter your children, but be careful about it. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
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Old 22-12-2009, 14:22   #48
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ViribusUnitis - You are absolutely correct! If I seemed to indicate that no socialization is required, my apologies! That is not what I meant. Your statement "maybe be important to shelter your children, but be careful about it" is excellent advice!
Socialization is important for kids, but it goes back to the phrase, "Bad associations spoil useful habits". Parents should know who their kids are associating with - this includes by the way of tv and internet.
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Old 23-12-2009, 14:36   #49
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Right on ..Maxingout!

We finally broke down an allowed Internet access for the kids about 4 months ago..They are 15,17 & 19..I'm able to look 20' across the room right now as I type this and watch what my youngest daughter's is researching for a school project as their only access is in the family room which is a wide open area so as to monitor their activities...we still don't and never will have broadcast television into the house...we do have a TV and we watch movies together as a family up to PG13....I'm all for deserted Islands as long as I can hold out and they hang in...Im going for 19 or 20...
Not quite where you are but 1 TV, 1 computer. There are better things to do than waste time with the "tube". I agree that "socialization" with other kids is overrated- that's what sibs are for.
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Old 24-12-2009, 08:17   #50
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Dunno about all this.
My parents said the same thing about us and their parents said the same about them back to the beginning of the human race.
But the fact is the most of these kids, the vast majority, will turn out just fine because most parents really try to do the best for their children even if we disagree with the way that they do it.
We may want to take our kids away from the commercial and material world and help them focus on reality, but unfortunately the commercial and material world IS reality.
So what do we do, for some, sailing away with their families is probably the correct answer. For most of us it is not. Home-schooling again a viable option for some but not for all.
What did we do, we moved to an area with decent public schools (Severna Park, MD), we spent lots of time with our kids (three boys and twin girls). There were lots of books and we read to them a lot. My wife ran her art business from home so she would be there for them. Above all we tried to teach them by example -- we weren't always successful but we tried.
They went out sailing as a family but they also had their sports, soccer, football, ice hockey and cross country. The main thing is that we tried to do things together. But there came a time with each of them after they became teenagers when they wanted to spend their time with their friends rather than with us. We worried about it but it seemed to us part of growing up. We just had to hope that what we tried to teach them actually stuck.
Now we can look back with at least a little satisfaction. We learned parenting as we went along, we made lots of mistakes but it seems that what we did -- it was enough. And I strongly believe that is true for most kids and their parents.
All our kids are in their late 20's and early 30's, they're all married, all working (in this day and age that's a lot) One of our daughters is going to take over my wife's business, the other is a college professor. One of our boys is an engineer, another a network guru and the third a fireman.
For us and our family what we did was right. But people and families are all different and we all have to find out own way. Our kids will be as different from us in some ways and we are from our parents.
One thing I realized way back when. They're not our kids, we just have them on loan for a little while from the powers that be. Our job is to teach them to be free and then let them go.
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Old 24-12-2009, 08:28   #51
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bloodhunter.

You got it man! You are right on the old nail head.

Mine are 20 and 21, going out by themselves - scary.

We hope some stuff "stuck" too.
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Old 24-12-2009, 09:37   #52
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Dunno about all this.
My parents said the same thing about us and their parents said the same about them back to the beginning of the human race.
But the fact is the most of these kids, the vast majority, will turn out just fine because most parents really try to do the best for their children even if we disagree with the way that they do it.
The generational issue was the first thing that ran across my mind as well . But media has gotten so insidous that I see it as a pretty big problem. I have taken the approach of teaching my kids what is wrong with media so that they have the capability of defending thselves against media. Commercials are there to get you to feel inadequate if you don't have what they are selling. The Corporations have the economy of scales where they can hire psychologists to figure out what will be the best method to make consumers out of children. The only way a child is to survive and become an "adult" (in the full sense of the word) is to let them make a few mistakes but to learn from them. Also the child has to learn to think for themselves. OTOH if my wife would agree I would be off on sailboat in about ten seconds.
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Old 24-12-2009, 10:54   #53
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Dunno about all this.
My parents said the same thing about us and their parents said the same about them back to the beginning of the human race...
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words...
When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[sic: disrespectful]and impatient of restraint."
~ Hesiod, 8th century BC
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Old 24-12-2009, 13:42   #54
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"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words...
When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [sic: disrespectful]and impatient of restraint."
~ Hesiod, 8th century BC
Gord,
Is that real?
I have been looking for that (or the one I remember) for a while with no luck.
I have been told it is not.
I want to believe.

As for the topic.
I would hazard a guess that some children who listened to the "tinker" going through town were admonished also.
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Old 24-12-2009, 14:09   #55
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Is that real?...
Beats me.
Believe it or not, I wasn’t actually present (at that time) to verify that Hesiod actually uttered or wrote those (or similar) words.
There were a large number of, now lost, Epic poems and other writings attributed to Hesiod, which were disputed, even in ancient times.
Similarly, Aristotle is also credited with many similar quotations (often by Plato), though none of his actual writings persist.
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Old 24-12-2009, 14:25   #56
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, Aristotle is also credited with many similar quotations (often by Plato),
.
Maybe that is the one I saw.
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Old 24-12-2009, 16:13   #57
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One thing I realized way back when. They're not our kids, we just have them on loan for a little while from the powers that be. Our job is to teach them to be free and then let them go.
Missa Ita Est
Bloodhunter that's perfect. I spend my days running a clinic and helping kids, parents, and couples make sense of the crazy world we live in. As I review this thread there are wonderful insights and perspectives offered - all reflecting our deep love and concern for our children. However, you tied it all up with a bow. My own kids are about the same age as yours and successful as well - successfully employed in careers they love and actively making grandkids for my wife and I to take sailing. In my opinion while our kids are on loan to us there are really only 6 major goals to help them attain for a successful launch.

1. Help them learn enough self dicipline to do the things they need to do (even if they don't want to) to accomplish what they need to accomplish.

2. Help them learn to be self modulating -they don't need to act in the moment on the emotion they are experienceing.

3. Teach them to be active/creative problem-solvers

4. Teach them to be critical thinkers. They need to be able to actively evaluate information they receive against what they already know.

5. They need to have established a moral grounding where making the right choices is based on socially/personally appropriate behavior rather than avoidance of consequence.

6. Finally they need to know how to establish and maintain healthy relationships. That is the foundation of true happiness.

If we as parents can help our kids move towards basic mastery of just those 6 things while they are on loan to us we have accomplished much. It is important to note that those goals can be accomplished in just about any venue or environment - on the hard or on the sea. All it really takes are aware and loving parents.

This has been a very interesting thread to follow. It gets to the heart of much that we struggle with.

Merry Christmas everyone,
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Old 24-12-2009, 16:44   #58
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Maybe that is the one I saw.
I then took comfort from Aristotle (384-322 BC):
"When I look at the younger generation, I despair of the future of civilisation."

...and from Plato (427-347 BC):
"What is happening to our young people? They disobey their elders, they disrespect their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
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Old 24-12-2009, 16:45   #59
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Be careful with that line of thought.

Some here seem to think that no socalization is required.

Maybe so.

However, there is a certian advantage to a shared culture. Even a sorry, crazy physco culture like the American one.

I would know. I didn't cruise as a kid, but I was sheltered from society. I missed out on most of my "generation"'s pop culture. Now that I'm a young adult, it's not always that easy to relate to other indivdules at work.

My wife was home schooled for a significant part of her education. She never developed the confidence in talking to, and being around people of her own age. She places much of the reason for this on the homeschooling.

it maybe be important to shelter your children, but be careful about it. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
This Be The Verse (Philip Larkin)

They **** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were ****ed up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
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Old 25-12-2009, 01:08   #60
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Personality traits often get blamed on others when individuals whom own those traits are not to their liking...I know of many state schooled kids whose parents are out going yet they are quite and shy...and just as many home schooled kids with reverse situations...I don't believe your wife's hypothesis at all. She may even have been beaten down and more introverted then she is now. We are all imprinted heavily at conception and it is very hard to change that...Give it a try...try changing something you don't like about your personality...I have tried...it is very, very hard to do...and a constant battle.

My own social skills seem to come and go...one time i am very comfortable around a crowd and another the cat has my tongue.

I get mad the most at those closest to me...I have unsuccessfully tried to change that for 25 years...Im better but the problem still exists....why?...well lets see whom can I blame.........its just how I'm wired...or my nature, my personality..nothing I can do about that but consciously work at it, learn to recognize what buttons pushed get me hot and try to anticipate those pushes telling myself it just isn't important..or what ever else works to keep from getting ticked off.

We all have to work with the hand were delt..its easy to win with a good hand..but takes some practic to consistantly win with a poor one...
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