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Old 04-01-2016, 15:29   #31
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

What we know is , a broker should be working for the owner, but he is working for himself
Brokers will always say, offer him this(lo amount)
The best brokerage in the world IMHO is Berthon UK, you should see their detailed listings, every last deratil plus defects
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Old 04-01-2016, 16:42   #32
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
IN our little State we only have two main brokers. The main broker in Tasmania I found to be quite deceptive. Even though I was a novice, I did my research (minimal as I later learnt) and so I sort of knew what to look for. But after traveling to Hobart to see a yacht on three occasions I gave it and the broker a miss as I simply didn't trust them anymore.

The broker wouldn't let me inspect the boat, a 34 foot steel sloop, I had my eye on properly. The first visit he gave me 10 minutes to look at a vessel and clearly stated he only had 10 minutes. He advised the way you buy boats according to him is you organize for a survey and sail and then you make an offer. I objected and said before I go to the expense of a survey I want to go over the vessel and make sure it's worthy of a survey and passes my amateur eye first. So, I made an appointment this time for a weeks time, took the two hour drive to return. Again, they would only give me 10 minutes. I objected about how I am meant to assess a vessel in 10 minutes. He repeated again, (different broker this time) the process of making an offer etc.

So, a third time I traveled down and this time on the phone I asked for two hours minimum. 'Why'? is what I was asked. I again explained I want to be sure it's a vessel I'm interested in before enlisting the expense of a surveyor. Reluctantly he agreed.

This time I brought a small bag of tools with me, screwdrivers, allen keys etc. I wanted to remove the floor panels which were allen keyed down. As soon as I started doing this, the guy picked up a fuss and said that's for a surveyor to do. Said I was getting ahead of myself. He was really quite upset at me wanting to do it, so I stopped. I then opened up the gally cupboard under the sink, reached up underneath and I could feel a very rusty stringer. It literally came off in my hand, so I put it down on the floor in the cupboard and told him I've seen everything I need too and decided to leave.

They are Tasmania's major boat dealer.. I"d not trust a boat broker anymore than a car salesman.
I have had mixed results with brokers in NSW. But my own brain tells me that if I were a broker and I was selling a boat that needed "love". I would point that "love" out to the buyer. After all, he is a future vendor and I would want him on my books.

I did have one excellent broker who simply reminded me that he works for the vendor. He was upfront the entire time. As a result, he will be the first I call when I sell my current boat.
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Old 04-01-2016, 17:02   #33
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

Just out of curiosity, how much does the broker make on the sale of the boat? 2%? 5%? 10%? I have never sold a boat through a broker. Only private sales.
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Old 04-01-2016, 17:11   #34
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

In Queensland, at the time we sold our previous Insatiable, it was somewhat negotiable, 6 to 8 %.

We've found brokers to have the gift of gab, or be bullsh*tters, found one to be quite enterprising, many to be lazy and misrepresent boats, one who didn't think she should have informed us when we made a trip from Brisbane to Sydney to go for a test sail, that the engine was in pieces on the cabin sole. Didn't even apologize. Decided against both boat and broker.

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Old 04-01-2016, 17:13   #35
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

You guys are ruining my dreams of buying a cheap 'boat Angel' bucket and sailing into the sunset. New engine 10k, new sails 2-3k, electronics... Plumbing... Paint... Standing rigging... Screw it I'll just get a new one...

There is a utube video somewhere of some kids doing it on the cheap.

Dreams...
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Old 04-01-2016, 17:20   #36
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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Originally Posted by Hoosiersailor View Post
Just out of curiosity, how much does the broker make on the sale of the boat? 2%? 5%? 10%? I have never sold a boat through a broker. Only private sales.
I would suggest that fees vary from country to country and market to market. This might give you a small indication however How to sell your boat : Australia Wide
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:24   #37
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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Originally Posted by Steven UK View Post
You guys are ruining my dreams of buying a cheap 'boat Angel' bucket and sailing into the sunset. New engine 10k, new sails 2-3k, electronics... Plumbing... Paint... Standing rigging... Screw it I'll just get a new one...

There is a utube video somewhere of some kids doing it on the cheap.

Dreams...
Nope...don't even think it! You will spend time getting warranty issues resolved instead of sailing. And once you have it, you will want to tweak it all anyway.
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Old 04-01-2016, 18:41   #38
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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You guys are ruining my dreams of buying a cheap 'boat Angel' bucket and sailing into the sunset. New engine 10k, new sails 2-3k, electronics... Plumbing... Paint... Standing rigging... Screw it I'll just get a new one...

There is a utube video somewhere of some kids doing it on the cheap.

Dreams...
Come on now...there are plenty of decent boats on both US coasts that are cheap! You would be amazed at how many people dump fortunes into "the boat of their dreams" only to find out that the dream was in reality a fantasy. Paying slip rent for months and years on a boat that never gets used gets old after a while...I've seen boats for sale by brokers sit in a slip for YEARS, and the expense just keeps adding up.
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Old 04-01-2016, 19:15   #39
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

10 min inspection without looking at the bilge or engine room or hire a survey is nuts, no matter how I got there. If I call and make an appointment and drive a couple of hours the broker had better be up front about the condition of the boat. If I'm going to get on an airplane and fly across the country, buy a hotel room and meals I've already shown significant financial interest and I had better have as much time as I want and be able to open all doors and hatches even if they are screwed down. Nothing destructive but anything I can see or touch is fair game.
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Old 04-01-2016, 23:56   #40
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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Originally Posted by Steven UK View Post
You guys are ruining my dreams of buying a cheap 'boat Angel' bucket and sailing into the sunset. New engine 10k, new sails 2-3k, electronics... Plumbing... Paint... Standing rigging... Screw it I'll just get a new one...

There is a utube video somewhere of some kids doing it on the cheap.

Dreams...
Its better to buy a smaller more functional/operational boat and actually go, than to buy a bigger boat that requires 12 months of work. Often the 12 months of work turns into a big money pit.

I dont know what your plans are but thats something to keep in mind
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Old 05-01-2016, 04:33   #41
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

My first boat, an O'day 34, was bought very cheap in Florida (as it was UK registered) and turned out to be an excellent buy. The broker was your typical south Florida gold-chain wearing fella, he wasn't pushy but took his time replying and chasing things along, and the only sea trial we managed was a quick trip around the canals. Other than the engine chewing through alternator belts (misaligned Balmar alternator), I couldn't have asked for a better boat.

A few years on, I bought a 43ft steel schooner on the south coast of the UK. It was cheap, very cheap, so we went for a look. She was on the hard, there was a lot of rainwater in the bilges (good ol' teak decks), but the broker was pretty straightforward about the fact some work would be needed and we accepted that. To cover our a**es, we paid a reputable steel boat surveyor about £500 to do a full survey. He came back with a survey that basically said "a bit of work required, but nothing major". That was 5 years and well over 100k ago. For insurance we had another surveyor come along to inspect the boat mid-way through the project. He's well known in the industry (writes for magazines, etc) but doesn't do many steel boats. Anyway, all was going well until he decided to check the steel thickness, and was adamant because his machine said I had 8mm plating, I had 8mm plating (even though I explained it was 5mm plate and the paint was being picked up). I mean really, if I didn't know how to use the tools I used for work, I wouldn't use them!

Frankly, I'd never trust a surveyor again - given how many caveats are written into the average survey so even if they do make a mistake, they're covered, I just don't see the point. As for brokers? Well, most of them just seem to be salesmen who are keen to move stock as fast as possible. Sure, both brokers we used were great guys and we kept in contact for some time thereafter, but it still felt like every time we talked, they were always keen to sell us something new......

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Old 05-01-2016, 06:27   #42
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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Yes it was the mans dumb fault...
Exactly. This is not a tale of "woe." It is a tale of stupidity. This is nothing more or less than a classic case of "a fool and his money are soon parted."
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Old 05-01-2016, 14:03   #43
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
10 min inspection without looking at the bilge or engine room or hire a survey is nuts, no matter how I got there. If I call and make an appointment and drive a couple of hours the broker had better be up front about the condition of the boat. If I'm going to get on an airplane and fly across the country, buy a hotel room and meals I've already shown significant financial interest and I had better have as much time as I want and be able to open all doors and hatches even if they are screwed down. Nothing destructive but anything I can see or touch is fair game.
Exactly that's exactly my point.

I think I proved I was serious in not only making an appointment, but I drove two hours to get there, then made another appointment to go back again, twice.
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Old 05-01-2016, 14:14   #44
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

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I hear you, but one also must consider the flip side of this coin.

The broker has to protect themselves from those who inspect boats as a form of "free" entertainment.

The broker is in business to make money, by matching buyers to sellers, not by spending inordinate amounts of time showing boats to folks who have no intention of purchasing.

While I disagree with the arbitrary 10 minute limit you experience, I can certainly understand the concern over say, a 4 hour preliminary inspection on a low end boat.

The issue is, the average person probably looks at 10 boats before purchasing one (some more, some less). If every person on initial inspection ripped the boat apart for 4 hours, that is 9 x 4 hours (36 hours) wasted.

As a common courtesy to the vessel owner, a prospect who has not demonstrated sincere interest in purchasing (meaning offer with deposit) should not start dismantling the boat with tools, or pounding on decks with hammers (possibly damaging the boat the owner is trying to sell).

If I was the seller, and the broker didn't object, I would fire them.

So I believe it is reasonable for a broker to offer a "reasonable" inspection, period, for the prospect to determine if they are seriously interested.

For a $30K boat, I would suggest a prospect should know within an hour, if they are seriously interested.

If they aren't seriously interested, there is no point in wasting any more time.

If they are seriously interested, then they can prove it by submitting an offer with reasonable deposit subject to all the normal conditions.

Once a prospect has demonstrated serious intent, there should be no objection to a more thorough inspection(s), within reasonable limits.

For example, for a $10K boat, I wouldn't expect a broker to accept an offer subject to a 4 hour owner detailed inspection, another 4 hour inspection with their friend, a 2 hour inspection with their wife, a 4 hour survey, a 2 hour engine eval, a 3 hour rigging eval, a 4 hour test sail, and so on. (Any broker who did this on a regular basis, wait, they couldn't, they would be out of business way before it became a regular occurrence.

This is also good for the buyer. Though some do it, it does not make sense to waste your time unfolding and refolding every single sail in the inventory, if you have no immediate intention in buying the boat.

Like with all things, there needs to be some balance.

Ramblin Rod
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Thanks for your considered response Rod, and I do have some appreciation for the broker if what you describe he really has such experience. In my case it was pretty clear that was not me.

But, if someone like me drives for two hours specifically to see a boat, after making an appointment, let alone, turns around and makes another appointment the following week and is still only given 10-15 minutes, then that's just not reasonable.

It's not a reasonable brokerage strategy to demand someone who is interested in 'considering' a boat pay out $500 to $800 in a survey just to consider whether to make an offer or not. I'd soon go broke 'looking' at boats if that's how it works.

And whether I want to hire a surveyor should be up to me, not mandatory on the broker.

When it comes down to it, I should be given a 'reasonable' period of time to inspect a vessel I have shown to be generally interested in.

Some months later I took great pleasure when this company rang me up to see if I was still interested and I informed them I'd purchased one in another state with a serious seller, I just had to go and get it.
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Old 05-01-2016, 14:25   #45
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Re: A True Tale of Woe

last night I called De Valk brokers in NL
They said, we will give you the keys, you can spend all day looking over the boat, alone
So refreshing
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