A True Tale of Woe

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by kellyp08

When you buy a boat, get a survey by a qualified ABNS surveyor and check him/her out before hiring.

And be aware that a surveyor can make a (big) mistake or just be no good, and the small print will keep him/her clear of all liability. At least here it does, which several people I know learned the hard way after putting too much faith in a survey ...

[Stuarth44]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

And be aware that a surveyor can make a (big) mistake or just be no good, and the small print will keep him/her clear of all liability. At least here it does, which several people I know learned the hard way after putting too much faith in a survey ...

It is true enough
I though about registering in QLD, but all the red tape stopped me
Besides I am a metal specialist and know nothing about that sticky stuff
Before I started the boat building Con in 85 I had quals as marine engineer and served my apprenticeship with Cummins ENG CO
Like financial advisers surveyers need have no qualifications much, well not that I am aware
One thing I always do, is ask the owner to remove the engine oil filter, cut it is half and spread the filter paper out for me ro read, and metal will be clearly visable there
bronze for bearings , silver colour can be piston of even the white metal from brgs
I pay for the filter
you are Dutch, you understand that there is steel and steel, high ten, ship steel or just rubbish mild made from melted fridges

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by kellyp08

I can relate to this story. In 1969, I had just finished a tour of duty in 'Nam; saved all my money - $12000 with the dream of buying and living on a boat for my last year in the Navy. My only actual sailing experience was in Lightnings and a friend's Tartan 27. Found a 42 foot steel schooner in South Florida. To insure the vessel, one needs a survey. Got a surveyor from a well known agency in South Florida; they sent out a surveyor who, I later found out, had completed his report solely by talking to the previous owner. On the voyage from Fort Lauderdale to Pensacola; the diesel quit off Cape Romano. Brought the boat into Naples, Fl under sail. Problem was that the diesel tank hadn't been flushed out in years. So we did that. Got underway again. Twenty miles later, we went dead in the water; found that, in gear, the prop wasn't turning even though the shaft was turning. We turned into Port St Joe (docked again under sail). I put the transmission in gear, then dove down with mask & flippers and turned the prop. The prop turned easily. I later found out that the previous owner had created a prop shaft with a hollow galvanized plumbing pipe that over time had corroded and finally broke. No way to fix this in Port St Joe. Raised sail again, bound for Pensacola. A Norther was blowing and we were making knots. But the thin, old sails started to tear at the panels and we were constantly repairing them underway. The salt spray seeped into the deck electrical outlets wires were all household/ automobile spec. It was then that I learned the value of tinned marine spec cable. Anyway got to Pensacola, went under the lift bridge under sail and brought her up into the Travel-lift; back-winding the gaff headed fores'l as a brake. Eventually, everything worked out - and then the rust stains started inside and out. Over the ensuing year my wife chipped, Red-Leaded and painted the entire schooner inside and out (no wonder she eventually divorced me - smart girl ! ).

Moral of this saga?

When you buy a boat, get a survey by a qualified ABNS surveyor and check him/her out before hiring. And be present as he/she does the survey with the seller NOT present. And with rare exceptions, avoid boats built in a backyard by an amateur builder.

All great information that I can relate to with my dealings with steel. Usually a steel buyer is a first time boat buyer...buying into the idea that steel is stronger than anything else, low maintenance and with basic welding skills can do their own repairs.
I was advertising a sail for sale (1986) and got a call from an interested party (Alameda, Ca.. His boat (Swain 36) had just caught on fire due to welding on the outside of the hull and forgetting he had foam insulation on the inside to fix a corrosion problem I assume. He managed to put the fire out but not after slicing his forehead open (30+ stitches).
My friends Roberts spray was hauled after a year, to find his new neighbor in the slip beside him was using an automotive battery charger and was saturating the water with stray currents. And like most...plastered the areas with thickened epoxy and sold the boat...and no...an electronic "thickness tester cannot pick that up apparently.
My former post of a surveyor frind that bought a Dutch steel boat from the 60's and dug around the bilge with a screwdriver, producing a gyser. He plated over bad metal, sailed to Hawaii and sold it a unsuspecting young couple who after digging into it, regretted buying it and let the former surveyor know about it.
I have a few more similar stories but you get the drift.

[Sailing55]

I almost hate to say this, but it is imperative that anyone buying a boat educate themselves beforehand in all aspects of construction, systems, etc. Even highly experienced people will find "surprises" in their new boat.

Brokers, surveyors, private sellers; some are honest, some are not. I have only owned two boats in the last twenty years, neither of which I had surveyed, because I worked in the marine trades. I fully expected unforeseen problems and defects, and I was not disappointed. My first boat, a Rhodes Red Cedar sloop was supposed to have been refastened, and it was. Unfortunately Red Cedar and galvanized fastenings are not compatible...the old girl suffered from "iron sickness" to an extreme, and that is when I learned the fine art of planking. The PO had to have been aware of the condition when refastening, yet failed to mention it. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the drift.

The point is, again, do your homework, and whatever it takes, educate yourself! It really is unreasonable to expect brokers and surveyors to either be aware of, or report, defect that will devalue that which they are selling or representing. Brokers, in reality, are in the business of representing the owner [and therefore themselves], same is true of surveyors. I know a surveyor that brokers hate, but potential buyers love; likewise I know another surveyor that is "quite friendly" with brokers, banks, and insurers. That is the way the game is played.

Ultimately we are all responsible for our own actions, and that is especially true in the world of boats. Just my opinion.

[zeehag]

even the best most honest surveyors miss stuff. i am glad i am smarter than average and able to see what is needed and what is bad and what is good about that which i decide to shove all my expendable income and more into. i did not have this v-bird surveyed, as i had been into more places on boat than most actually enter to survey. i did not lose.

[buzzstar]

The whole thing seems odd to me, not the lack of knowledge attributable to the buyer, but the indications of deception/misrepresentation/fraud by the broker and the seller, and the apparent lack of a civilized legal remedy.

[Stuarth44]

it would seem to me, that to be a surveyer of say sail, then you should have considerable sailing knowledge and experience, much like NZ has for Cat one NZ yachts leaving NZ
He/ she should go up the mast and inspect everything
the mast and rudder and associated bits are what gets a boat there and back
He/she should have a trade in or qualification in building or say a design qual
A thorough knowledge of motor, electrics DC and bring in a marine electrician if AC is aboard
But here in Au, well goodness, what can one say
I did everything in house, from plating, painting all ss work hydraulics wiring and the construction dwgs which were submitted to the various society's, Lloyds etc
Now I take great pleasure in teaching, for free, if I charged a fee for my work, then it would be , just work)

[Stuarth44]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

The whole thing seems odd to me, not the lack of knowledge attributable to the buyer, but the indications of deception/misrepresentation/fraud by the broker and the seller, and the apparent lack of a civilized legal remedy.

imagine
You arrive in a foreign, albeit Eng speaking land, your dream is to sail the Pacific
The broker , has an obligation to make sure a boat is fit for purpose?
They were poor, to begin litigation here is mind blowingly expensive

They accepted the losses, they learned from it all
But the previous owner, how could he do that
A Cretin

[kellyp08]

Hi Zee

I agree that even good surveyors miss things (don't get me started on this one!). I've owned boats for 43 years and always have gotten surveys and I have seen some of the "best" overlook some details (like rotting stainless steel fastenings in a 40 year old laid teak deck, non-spec wiring, etc.etc). Nonetheless, "love is blind". Even an experienced prospective owner can be so smitten that he/she may overlook issues that can be expensive to fix. At the very least, a knowledgeable surveyor can provide a "reality check" - or as we say in our field (medicine): a second opinion. And as you know, at the very least you need a survey for insurance purposes.

[Rustic Charm]

IN our little State we only have two main brokers. The main broker in Tasmania I found to be quite deceptive. Even though I was a novice, I did my research (minimal as I later learnt) and so I sort of knew what to look for. But after traveling to Hobart to see a yacht on three occasions I gave it and the broker a miss as I simply didn't trust them anymore.

The broker wouldn't let me inspect the boat, a 34 foot steel sloop, I had my eye on properly. The first visit he gave me 10 minutes to look at a vessel and clearly stated he only had 10 minutes. He advised the way you buy boats according to him is you organize for a survey and sail and then you make an offer. I objected and said before I go to the expense of a survey I want to go over the vessel and make sure it's worthy of a survey and passes my amateur eye first. So, I made an appointment this time for a weeks time, took the two hour drive to return. Again, they would only give me 10 minutes. I objected about how I am meant to assess a vessel in 10 minutes. He repeated again, (different broker this time) the process of making an offer etc.

So, a third time I traveled down and this time on the phone I asked for two hours minimum. 'Why'? is what I was asked. I again explained I want to be sure it's a vessel I'm interested in before enlisting the expense of a surveyor. Reluctantly he agreed.

This time I brought a small bag of tools with me, screwdrivers, allen keys etc. I wanted to remove the floor panels which were allen keyed down. As soon as I started doing this, the guy picked up a fuss and said that's for a surveyor to do. Said I was getting ahead of myself. He was really quite upset at me wanting to do it, so I stopped. I then opened up the gally cupboard under the sink, reached up underneath and I could feel a very rusty stringer. It literally came off in my hand, so I put it down on the floor in the cupboard and told him I've seen everything I need too and decided to leave.

They are Tasmania's major boat dealer.. I"d not trust a boat broker anymore than a car salesman.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Stuarth44

imagine
You arrive in a foreign, albeit Eng speaking land, your dream is to sail the Pacific
The broker , has an obligation to make sure a boat is fit for purpose?
They were poor, to begin litigation here is mind blowingly expensive

They accepted the losses, they learned from it all
But the previous owner, how could he do that
A Cretin

[QUOTE=kellyp08;2004215]Hi Zee

The original poster's tale included the statement, "The broker who had advertised the boat in a most misleading fashion did not want a bar of it, nor did the previous owner." To me the bad part was, "advertised the boat in a most misleading fashion."

Huh? I had thought 'Stralia and the semi-nearby sheep raisers' islands were a bit more civilized than that. A broker (and a seller) would not have an obligation to determine a purpose, but if they gained the knowledge, they would (or should) have an obligation to provide a warning or to strongly suggest further inquiry by the buyer. They definitely should not have license to make misrepresentations or representations they do not know to be true.

This difference in our opinions may reflect the or a reason why Australians and New Zealanders are frequently viewed as con artists by Americans -they are simply dealing with different cultural and legal standards -the traditional, buyer beware vs. the newer, the seller and his agents need to be truthful, and definitely not untruthful.

[kellyp08]

I'd tell him to go fornicate with himself, let him know that your displeasure will be transmitted to anybody who'll listen and send a letter to the Chairman of the company (if there is one). My guess is that the boat has structural issues and the broker has a surveyor on the take that will give the vessel a clean "bill of health". As we used to say in the US NAVY: FUGGM

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

IN our little State we only have two main brokers. The main broker in Tasmania I found to be quite deceptive. Even though I was a novice, I did my research (minimal as I later learnt) and so I sort of knew what to look for. But after traveling to Hobart to see a yacht on three occasions I gave it and the broker a miss as I simply didn't trust them anymore.

The broker wouldn't let me inspect the boat, a 34 foot steel sloop, I had my eye on properly. The first visit he gave me 10 minutes to look at a vessel and clearly stated he only had 10 minutes. He advised the way you buy boats according to him is you organize for a survey and sail and then you make an offer. I objected and said before I go to the expense of a survey I want to go over the vessel and make sure it's worthy of a survey and passes my amateur eye first. So, I made an appointment this time for a weeks time, took the two hour drive to return. Again, they would only give me 10 minutes. I objected about how I am meant to assess a vessel in 10 minutes. He repeated again, (different broker this time) the process of making an offer etc.

So, a third time I traveled down and this time on the phone I asked for two hours minimum. 'Why'? is what I was asked. I again explained I want to be sure it's a vessel I'm interested in before enlisting the expense of a surveyor. Reluctantly he agreed.

This time I brought a small bag of tools with me, screwdrivers, allen keys etc. I wanted to remove the floor panels which were allen keyed down. As soon as I started doing this, the guy picked up a fuss and said that's for a surveyor to do. Said I was getting ahead of myself. He was really quite upset at me wanting to do it, so I stopped. I then opened up the gally cupboard under the sink, reached up underneath and I could feel a very rusty stringer. It literally came off in my hand, so I put it down on the floor in the cupboard and told him I've seen everything I need too and decided to leave.

They are Tasmania's major boat dealer.. I"d not trust a boat broker anymore than a car salesman.

I hear you, but one also must consider the flip side of this coin.

The broker has to protect themselves from those who inspect boats as a form of "free" entertainment.

The broker is in business to make money, by matching buyers to sellers, not by spending inordinate amounts of time showing boats to folks who have no intention of purchasing.

While I disagree with the arbitrary 10 minute limit you experience, I can certainly understand the concern over say, a 4 hour preliminary inspection on a low end boat.

The issue is, the average person probably looks at 10 boats before purchasing one (some more, some less). If every person on initial inspection ripped the boat apart for 4 hours, that is 9 x 4 hours (36 hours) wasted.

As a common courtesy to the vessel owner, a prospect who has not demonstrated sincere interest in purchasing (meaning offer with deposit) should not start dismantling the boat with tools, or pounding on decks with hammers (possibly damaging the boat the owner is trying to sell).

If I was the seller, and the broker didn't object, I would fire them.

So I believe it is reasonable for a broker to offer a "reasonable" inspection, period, for the prospect to determine if they are seriously interested.

For a $30K boat, I would suggest a prospect should know within an hour, if they are seriously interested.

If they aren't seriously interested, there is no point in wasting any more time.

If they are seriously interested, then they can prove it by submitting an offer with reasonable deposit subject to all the normal conditions.

Once a prospect has demonstrated serious intent, there should be no objection to a more thorough inspection(s), within reasonable limits.

For example, for a $10K boat, I wouldn't expect a broker to accept an offer subject to a 4 hour owner detailed inspection, another 4 hour inspection with their friend, a 2 hour inspection with their wife, a 4 hour survey, a 2 hour engine eval, a 3 hour rigging eval, a 4 hour test sail, and so on. (Any broker who did this on a regular basis, wait, they couldn't, they would be out of business way before it became a regular occurrence.

This is also good for the buyer. Though some do it, it does not make sense to waste your time unfolding and refolding every single sail in the inventory, if you have no immediate intention in buying the boat.

Like with all things, there needs to be some balance.

Ramblin Rod
Marine Service Provider
About Sheen Marine

[Stuarth44]

They are Tasmania's major boat dealer.. I"d not trust a boat broker anymore than a car salesman. [/QUOTE]
I am with you 100%
I never heard such nonsense
You can do your own survey and take as much time as you want,
I have inspected boats all over the world and been given help and licence from brokers
That broker is a scoundrel
The trouble is with mostly all amatuer built (and many pro built) steel boats down under, is
1 They do not use ship grade or corten or hi ten, they use melted car bodies
2 they do not blast the inside or use preblast steel
3 When they painit, they do not use a min 250 microns paint on inside
I would look where they know abt steel, Eu
I am off next month to decide on a 38 footer
cheers

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I hear you, but one also must consider the flip side of this coin.

The broker has to protect themselves from those who inspect boats as a form of "free" entertainment.

The broker is in business to make money, by matching buyers to sellers, not by spending inordinate amounts of time showing boats to folks who have no intention of purchasing.

While I disagree with the arbitrary 10 minute limit you experience, I can certainly understand the concern over say, a 4 hour preliminary inspection on a low end boat.

The issue is, the average person probably looks at 10 boats before purchasing one (some more, some less). If every person on initial inspection ripped the boat apart for 4 hours, that is 9 x 4 hours (36 hours) wasted.

As a common courtesy to the vessel owner, a prospect who has not demonstrated sincere interest in purchasing (meaning offer with deposit) should not start dismantling the boat with tools, or pounding on decks with hammers (possibly damaging the boat the owner is trying to sell).

If I was the seller, and the broker didn't object, I would fire them.

So I believe it is reasonable for a broker to offer a "reasonable" inspection, period, for the prospect to determine if they are seriously interested.

For a $30K boat, I would suggest a prospect should know within an hour, if they are seriously interested.

If they aren't seriously interested, there is no point in wasting any more time.

If they are seriously interested, then they can prove it by submitting an offer with reasonable deposit subject to all the normal conditions.

Once a prospect has demonstrated serious intent, there should be no objection to a more thorough inspection(s), within reasonable limits.

For example, for a $10K boat, I wouldn't expect a broker to accept an offer subject to a 4 hour owner detailed inspection, another 4 hour inspection with their friend, a 2 hour inspection with their wife, a 4 hour survey, a 2 hour engine eval, a 3 hour rigging eval, a 4 hour test sail, and so on. (Any broker who did this on a regular basis, wait, they couldn't, they would be out of business way before it became a regular occurrence.

This is also good for the buyer. Though some do it, it does not make sense to waste your time unfolding and refolding every single sail in the inventory, if you have no immediate intention in buying the boat.

Like with all things, there needs to be some balance.

Ramblin Rod
Marine Service Provider
About Sheen Marine

All that being said, if someone takes the time to go look at a boat & is serious about buying it they should spend at least an hour on the boat the first time they inspect it. In fact the more time they spend on the boat the more serious they are. If you're a broker & you don't have that kind of time you need to get a new job. I work in real estate & telling someone they have to leave after 10 minutes is absurd. This is a huge purchase that demands careful consideration.