Water in the Pacific

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

When and if a watermaker was to break down, the owner is never left “stuck with their owners wringing their hands waiting for parts to arrive.” Spares are kept onboard AND it’s not like the water storage tanks have been removed, the boat still has the capacity to store as much water as a non-watermaker equipped boat of the same model.

Well, they do tend to end up “stuck with their owners wringing their hands waiting for parts to arrive.”

The way it happens is that they first order the part(s) that failed and they didn't have on board when they arrive. Then they end up waiting for it for a distressing amount of time, because it needs to be sent to Tahiti or wherever first, cleared by customs when they feel like it and then forwarded via a small freighter that doesn't come around very often.

I saw quite a few of these gadget fixers that were there when I arrived, and still there when I left. What had seemed so essential a few weeks earlier suddenly looked quite optional, but they couldn't give up and leave after having spent $$ on buying and shipping their spare parts.

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Quite happy to disagree with your premise that dependable access to clean water is an unnecessary need, when cruising.

I had never noticed until now that I hadn't had "dependable access to clean water", that is pretty amazing! Thanks for pointing it out.

It may be that my experience stems from ocean cruising - the context of this thread, rather than running charter boats, which would be vastly different.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

The energy density of diesel fuel is 45MJ/kg = 12.5kWh/kg. A small diesel engine on a boat consumes roughly 240g/kWh, so it only produces ~4.2kWh per kg of fuel. That is a 33% conversion efficiency. Small alternators are around 60% efficient only, so that is now an overall efficiency of 20%.
...
On a multihull, one could certainly install enough capacity to have spare energy to make some water and it could even be quite useful at times. There is a difference between useful and necessary however, considering that it becomes yet another thing to look after.

Ok, I’ll believe you about the fuel efficiency but don’t forget that the heat of an engine or generator can be used in (central) heating for your boat, or for making hot water. Electricity isn’t the only product.

As far as spare capacity goes, it doesn’t have to be a multi. On a 38’ mono you can already have a 1kW solar array producing vast surplus, even while running the water maker.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

I had never noticed until now that I hadn't had "dependable access to clean water", that is pretty amazing! Thanks for pointing it out.

.

Your welcome! [emoji4]

A basic service is an improved*drinking-watersource within a round trip of 30 minutes to collect*water. ...*Globally, at least 2 billion people use a*drinking watersource*contaminated*with faeces.*Contaminated watercan transmit diseases such diarrhoea, cholera, dysentery, typhoid, and polio.Feb 7, 2018

Drinking-water - World Health Organization

http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sh...drinking-water

Also add to that.... the salt water intrusion into the water supply by rising sea levels and you will understand that in tropical coastal villages, their water is no.longer safe to drink

Yachts tend to hang around overdeveloped resort areas

This is what is happening
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018..._redevelopment

[a64pilot]

I doubt you can call us less efficient, average person in the US consumes 80 to 100 gls of water a day, per person
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/qa-home-percapita.html
Roughly 33 KWH per day, per dwelling.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3
More than one gallon of gasoline is burned for each man, woman and child, every day
https://phys.org/news/2016-09-gasoli...on-higher.html

The how much gas was tougher to find, I found average of just under 500 gls per vehicle per year, with the average household having slightly over 2 cars per household, so each household burns approx 1000 gls per year.

I don’t feel so bad with my Watermaker and going through 50 gls of Diesel every other month or so, sometimes less, and of course that includes propulsion, just to make water? Maybe 10 gls a month


How many of us burn 1000 gls of Diesel a year? No, I’d say even cruisers doing it in luxury are extremely efficient compared to land living people.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

Well, they do tend to end up “stuck with their owners wringing their hands waiting for parts to arrive.”

The way it happens is that they first order the part(s) that failed and they didn't have on board when they arrive. Then they end up waiting for it for a distressing amount of time, because it needs to be sent to Tahiti or wherever first, cleared by customs when they feel like it and then forwarded via a small freighter that doesn't come around very often.

I saw quite a few of these gadget fixers that were there when I arrived, and still there when I left. What had seemed so essential a few weeks earlier suddenly looked quite optional, but they couldn't give up and leave after having spent $$ on buying and shipping their spare parts.

Then we must be doing something right or just have a different attitude towards repair and spare parts than most cruisers. We’ve never been stuck waiting for parts in over eight years of cruising. I did have both the generator and engine not operational for two days a couple of years ago, but with a single afternoon of help from a friend, we sorted it out in a beautiful bay in Montenegro.

No “hand wringing” took place.

[a64pilot]

Don’t jinx yourself

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Don’t jinx yourself

We care plenty of spares, abundant tankage and hang around resourceful people. We rarely hire assistance.

Example: Last week I got a quote of $300 from a local diver to inspect and clean the bottom of the boat. So what did I do?

I invested $375 into a 7mm wetsuit so I can continue to do the bottom work myself in these cooler waters.

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

As far as spare capacity goes, it doesn’t have to be a multi. On a 38’ mono you can already have a 1kW solar array producing vast surplus, even while running the water maker.

Well, without any consideration for windage and seaworthiness, maybe! I would really hate to see that.

In my experience, on a monohull the game is about efficiency. It is not too hard to make it work when you have a lot of sun, and you could probably make a little water in optimal conditions, but not hundreds of litres to waste down the drain.

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Yachts tend to hang around overdeveloped resort areas

Oh really?? I would need that like a hole in the head. A lot of assumptions and no foundations.

Never had any trouble with water. I don't waste it. I use seawater where it makes no difference. It seems simple and easy enough.

Most cruisers wouldn't go very far if they started operating like charter boats and there are powerful reasons for that. You should maybe keep this in mind.

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I doubt you can call us less efficient, average person in the US consumes 80 to 100 gls of water a day, per person
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/qa-home-percapita.html
Roughly 33 KWH per day, per dwelling.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3
More than one gallon of gasoline is burned for each man, woman and child, every day
https://phys.org/news/2016-09-gasoli...on-higher.html

The how much gas was tougher to find, I found average of just under 500 gls per vehicle per year, with the average household having slightly over 2 cars per household, so each household burns approx 1000 gls per year.

I don’t feel so bad with my Watermaker and going through 50 gls of Diesel every other month or so, sometimes less, and of course that includes propulsion, just to make water? Maybe 10 gls a month

How many of us burn 1000 gls of Diesel a year? No, I’d say even cruisers doing it in luxury are extremely efficient compared to land living people.

Efficiency is not consumption. Ok, the average person ashore has a higher energy footprint, but that person also does one hell of a lot more and many also live in cold climates with needs for heating.
The energy you use ashore is generated far more efficiently than what you can attempt to replicate with Mickey Mouse equipment on your boat once you start burning fuel.

The same applies to sailing, i.e. covering distance. Have you got an efficient yacht, or do you realistically motor most of the time?
Some of the worst yachts you can come across are charter boats. Their engine hours are unbelievable. It is a combination of service constraints and invariably far too heavy for their length. If you want to find a boat burning 1000gals/year, look in that direction and you will fall over backwards when you see the actual figures.

A lot of cruisers do quite well with renewables these days and simply object to running engines on the basis of the associated nuisances and cost. It starts with being smart with controlling energy requirements and this can lead back to the water question.
In the summer months, I produce more solar energy than I normally use. For part of the year, I have switched to using an electric kettle to boil water instead of the LPG stove. It is free, clean, perfect... It made a big difference to the LPG consumption on board as most of it is being used for boiling water precisely. Some multihulls in the tropics can run all electric cooking now and no genset.

One of the issues we are having with solar is that the market is driven in terms of the lowest $/W... there is always plenty of space for more panels ashore. We need panels optimised for highest W/m^2. Multi-junction cells use a broader part of the light spectrum and can produce more than twice what we are getting, but nobody seems to be manufacturing and selling multi-junction panels.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray

In my experience, on a monohull the game is about efficiency. It is not too hard to make it work when you have a lot of sun, and you could probably make a little water in optimal conditions, but not hundreds of litres to waste down the drain.

On sunny days and at anchor (not under way) we could easily make 400 liters of water on *surplus* solar—without more windage than a bimini, on a mono. It doesn’t have to be a multi. We could probably average 600 liters a (sunny) day if this were all we focused on. We’re making it at 100 l/h at 600W with a 1,240W solar array.

We have small kids aboard and we are very glad to be able to do laundry on the spot whenever they leak out of any orrifice. We’d be prisoners of marinas without a watermaker and never go anywhere. It’s the single most important kit of non-essential equipment we have on board followed close by the washer dryer.

To get back to the spirit of your (OceanSeaSpray) initial post that started this, I get why you’re so adverse to non-essential equipment as a marine service provider. You get to meet a disproportionate amount of cruisers who ran into trouble. You remind me of cops who think all people are bad because that’s the only kind of people they meet day in and day out on the job.

There’s of course nothing wrong with your strategy as far as cruising goes but you might consider giving those with different viewpoints a little more slack. After all it’s not a religion. (It’s way worse. )

[OceanSeaSpray]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

On sunny days and at anchor (not under way) we could easily make 400 liters of water on *surplus* solar—without more windage than a bimini, on a mono.

This would bring the discussion on the topic of the windage of what some call a "bimini", when the boat is heeled over hard with 40 knots of wind. Liveaboard windage rating is something else and seaworthiness goes out the window. I am a sailor.

Originally Posted by 2big2small

We have small kids aboard and we are very glad to be able to do laundry on the spot whenever they leak out of any orrifice. We’d be prisoners of marinas without a watermaker and never go anywhere. It’s the single most important kit of non-essential equipment we have on board followed close by the washer dryer.

If you had ever tried to do your washing in seawater, you would have discovered that it works fine and a large amount of fresh water is not a necessity. All the old cruisers knew that. So much for being a prisoner of marinas.
In the end, how you balance convenience with everything else is your choice. You can certainly duplicate a house on the water and a 50' boat helps with this, but it might not be very suited to sailing any more. Certainly not what I call sailing. I would also like to point out that living aboard is a rather simple proposition compared to doing the same while cruising offshore for years and generalisation doesn't carry across.

Originally Posted by 2big2small

To get back to the spirit of your initial post that started this, I get why you’re so adverse to non-essential equipment as a marine service provider. You get to meet a disproportionate amount of cruisers who ran into trouble. You remind me of cops who think all people are bad because that’s the only kind of people they meet day in and day out on the job.

I am adverse to non-essential equipment because it clutters the boat and makes it heavy, sail poorly, more costly to maintain and uses up time in maintenance/headaches/logistics that could be best spent elsewhere. When you also cruise offshore, some of this equipment can become virtually unmaintainable.
CF one day changed my status to marine service provider because I sometimes design boats for the select few people who appreciate simplicity and efficiency, and some for commercial operators. I don't meet cruisers as a rule, and I don't want to. I have met some just because of the number of years I have spent on the water and the mileage I have covered through all latitudes.
Now and then, I hear from those who screwed up with their lithium batteries and I tend to help them out.

So, no, I am afraid you didn't get anything.

I have just stated a few simple facts and it all started because I suggested running seawater to the galley sink, which is hilarious. Having a seawater tap in the galley is most basic common sense as soon as you need to make your fresh water go further. I deliberately didn't mention that, at sea, you can also use some for cooking instead of adding salt into your fresh water. I suppose it could be called "dependable access to salted fresh water", haha.

[a64pilot]

Just curious, is there a Mrs. OceanSeaSpray?

[2big2small]

Well we do sail thousands of miles a year and cross oceans. But we still choose to optimise our boat for living aboard rather than try to make it the sleekest vessel that ever graced the seven seas. We’ll have to heave to sooner than you have to, should we ever get caught out, sure.