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Old 21-05-2012, 00:02   #106
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
avb3--ye can come to my shiplet here in la cruz--there is an awesome butcher store here with very tasty meats..and some great stores for veggies.....much better meats and better quality veggies than in usa.
I may take you up on that.... I've been to Mexico a few times and they do know how to use meat.
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Old 21-05-2012, 00:30   #107
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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And just one study of why meat eating helped man evolve.
Which also says exactly nothing about whether eating meat is necessary for a healthy diet or not.


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She is careful to emphasize that their results concern human evolution. The research is about how carnivory can have contributed to the human species' spreading on earth and says nothing about what we should or should not eat today in order to have a good diet.
And just to be a bit more precise the study suggests that by shortening the suckling period, meat in mans diet helped in the evolutionary success. Something which is irrelevant in the high quality diets , veggie or otherwise, of us rich westerners.
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Old 21-05-2012, 00:36   #108
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

I wish there was a yawn icon on CF...
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Old 25-05-2012, 18:12   #109
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Although we have teeth that are called "canines", they bear little resemblance to the canines of carnivores. If that's the basis for your thinking on this, it's pretty thin evidence.

As to the other anatomical attributes that define whether we are an herbivore or omnivore, we are much closer to apes than any other animals. They are herbivores.

Obviously this is a contentious subject, and you will find proponents on both sides. Here's one that seems pretty comprehensive, by Milton R. Mills, M.D.
The Comparative Anatomy of Eating - Vegsource.com
Apes are herbivores? Not all. Just ask David Attenborough.
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Old 25-05-2012, 18:18   #110
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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Apes are herbivores? Not all. Just ask David Attenborough.
Yeah Yeah pile on. ONE mistake. How many times do I need to be corrected? Some people don't read.
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Old 25-05-2012, 18:23   #111
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Oops, sorry. This thread has got so long I accidently missed a whole page!
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Old 25-05-2012, 18:43   #112
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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Oops, sorry. This thread has got so long I accidently missed a whole page!
You mean the one about those apes, the chimps, hunting and eating meat? Our closes relatives on the evolutionary tree?
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Old 25-05-2012, 19:28   #113
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You mean the one about those apes, the chimps, hunting and eating meat? Our closes relatives on the evolutionary tree?
I have a bowman that is a chimp. Apparently they also drink beer. Evolution is real folks... Who knows, in 10,000 years he may get to helm...
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Old 26-05-2012, 06:15   #114
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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I have a bowman that is a chimp. Apparently they also drink beer. Evolution is real folks... Who knows, in 10,000 years he may get to helm...
Actually the research indicates exercise stimulates intelligence and "executive function". Exercise and Children

So maybe you should get off your ass and start moving if you're the skipper.
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Old 26-05-2012, 06:39   #115
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

To continue in the CF tradition of excessive thread drift - - don't get too uppity about being superior to our cousins the chimps. A research facility in Miami just published that they have found that two of their young chimps when presented with an "iPad" took to it readily and quickly had it functioning. However, when the same "iPad" was presented to the older parent chimps, the "old" guys could not get it to do anything. The old guys just wanted to smash it and take it apart.
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Old 30-05-2012, 06:18   #116
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

I know this is an old discussion but thought I would add to itÖ

my wife is a vegan/yogi and i am a pescetarian (basically a vegan except I eat fish and eggs, almost never dairy other than occasional cheese for things like pasta and pizza). My wife only makes vegan exception for fish I catch. That basically makes her a non-vegan, but everyone makes their choices and has reasons for what they eat and donít eat. we left Maryland in November and we are now in Guadeloupe. eating out is pretty difficult as a vegan. sure, you can go out and eat a salad or pasta at most restaurants, but to pay for that is kind of ridiculous and salads served at a lot of restaurants are a joke. The pure vegan restaurants we find on islands are usually rasta places. Unfortunately for me, that means they usually don't serve beer either. We found restaurants in the BVIs usually had at least one vegan/vegetarian meal. At many other places there is not even a choice like that. Some of the leeward islands places and bvis make vegi rotis that are really good.
the only non-vegan thing we have on board is eggs (i love my morning egg sandwiches) or fish that i catch and sometimes cheese. otherwise, our boat and diets are pure vegan.

we can typically find fruits and veggies at the various island stops.
bahamas - not very good at all for veggies or fruits and very expensive.
Turks & Caicos - good selection but very expensive.
DR - good for bananas, mangoes, tomatoes, avacodos, potatoes, pineapples, etc. not very expensive.
USVI - good selection at some places and not to expensive.
BVI - decent selection but more expensive.
leewards islands - decent selection and not too expensive.

As for meals, breakfasts are usually oatmeal or toast, and my wife makes shakes with bananas, sprouted almonds and almond milk.
Lunches are usually toast with peanut butter and apples, or leftovers from the previous night.
My wife tries to get creative with our dinners. She looks up a lot of vegan recipes. We have things like pasta but with different vegan sauces, made from pureed cashews and other ingredients. Homemade rotis, veggie quesadillas and burritos, veggie pizza (mine with cheese), rice with veggies/beans, etc. we donít eat a lot of soy products but you can find them on most islands. Now that we are in the leeward islands it is a little harder to find almond milk, but from Maryland to here we could. We tend to stay away from soy products since there is a lot of debate about which type and how much is good for you.
My wife also did stock up on some vegan essentials before we left that make cooking creatively easier. Some things that we were running out of were brought by visitors. Some vegan recipe sites are:
http://www.megan-rogers.com/ (a friend of ours)
http://www.theppk.com/ (many good recipes)
I would say we could go without our freezer, but it definitely helps to have some frozen items in there (like orange juice) and the fake meat I use on my egg sandwiches. Ice is definitely great at times. Refrigeration is also great for drinks, oj, almond milk once opened, fruits and vegetables, and leftovers.
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Old 30-05-2012, 06:56   #117
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

1) We did evolve as omnivores, but generally our proto-ancestors did not consume nearly as high as % of meat as in the typical 1st world diet.
2) There are difficulties, though not nearly insurmountables ones, in consuming sufficient iron, B12, calcium, etc, in a vegan/vegeterain diet. There are plenty of reputable sources on how to eat a perfectly suitable vegan/vegetarian diet. It's reasonably easy to accomplish.
3) We don't currently live the lifestyle of a plains ape, so it's strange that we consider it as as a reasonable comparison to that of a city-dwelling vegan or someone sailing from port to port on a fibreglass boat.


So, please, no more tired, simplistic platitudes on the defense or attack of vegetarianism/veganism please. It's a personal choice.
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Old 30-05-2012, 11:12   #118
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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Originally Posted by genomic View Post
1) We did evolve as omnivores, but generally our proto-ancestors did not consume nearly as high as % of meat as in the typical 1st world diet.
2) There are difficulties, though not nearly insurmountables ones, in consuming sufficient iron, B12, calcium, etc, in a vegan/vegeterain diet. There are plenty of reputable sources on how to eat a perfectly suitable vegan/vegetarian diet. It's reasonably easy to accomplish.
3) We don't currently live the lifestyle of a plains ape, so it's strange that we consider it as as a reasonable comparison to that of a city-dwelling vegan or someone sailing from port to port on a fibreglass boat.


So, please, no more tired, simplistic platitudes on the defense or attack of vegetarianism/veganism please. It's a personal choice.
It intrigues me that vegetarians and vegans exude the benefits of their choice as being natural, yet NEED to revert to artificial and unnatural means to supplement dietary deficiencies and nutrients that would be obtained by meat, fish, fowl or even eggs.

Nothing like promulgating the pill popping culture.

It's such a first world thing.

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Old 30-05-2012, 11:33   #119
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

I thought this discussion was about vegetarian cruising, not about choices of diet!
I think vegans mainly stop eating meat, fish, dairy not to be healthier, but rather to not kill or hurt animals. I am not a vegan, but from being married to one, that is what I understand. Since she does it, I mainly eat that way as well.
I think the natural thing is actually secondary. Yes, you want to eat as much healthy natural food as possible. For those who make that choice, some who have lived their lives for over 40 or more years as meat eaters, not eating meat is sometimes difficult, especially on their taste buds (part of the reason I like the fake bacon/sausage I eat every now and then). We went to a vegan cooking class one time, and yes, a lot of the stuff they were using was soy based. The same thinking went on in my head, why aren't you teaching us how to just cooking with all fresh natural stuff. Well, the chef’s response was that it sometimes gets boring just eating all natural stuff, and it is not as easy to do it all. We love finding a vegan restaurant that is creative with the way they cook there food. Same reason most people go to restaurants, either to eat something they wouldn’t make at home or because they are too lazy to cook at home.

So while some people think that a vegan or vegetarian’s choice of not eating meat is for the natural part, I think a lot of people who choose this path is to not harm animals in any way. There are various levels of what people are willing to do with their choice. For example, my wife does not want to harm any animals. I have made a choice not to eat land meat (cows, pigs, chickens) to support her. But, I do enjoy fishing and eating fish. I am harming sea animals, but at least I know how they are being treated and that they were fed naturally. If I was eating meat, than I would make attempts to eat organic meat, but I am sure that wouldn’t happen all the time. Just like I would like to eat all organic fruit and vegetables, but that is not always possible as well.

Just the other day I was reading an article about the 12 worst things you can consume and it was things like chips and soda. One on the list was grocery store apples, because of all the pesticides they put on them while they are being grown. Go figure. I personally don’t think that eating some or a lot of meat is unhealthy. It really depends on how much and what kind you eat, what exercise you do, and how your body deals with it.

The health benefits of vitamins have been debated. We still take a vitamin every day. Maybe it helps, maybe it don’t, doubt I will ever know for sure.
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Old 30-05-2012, 12:08   #120
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Re: Vegetarian Cruising

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Originally Posted by genomic View Post
1) We did evolve as omnivores, but generally our proto-ancestors did not consume nearly as high as % of meat as in the typical 1st world diet.
2) There are difficulties, though not nearly insurmountables ones, in consuming sufficient iron, B12, calcium, etc, in a vegan/vegetarian diet. There are plenty of reputable sources on how to eat a perfectly suitable vegan/vegetarian diet. It's reasonably easy to accomplish.
3) We don't currently live the lifestyle of a plains ape, so it's strange that we consider it as as a reasonable comparison to that of a city-dwelling vegan or someone sailing from port to port on a fiberglass boat.


So, please, no more tired, simplistic platitudes on the defense or attack of vegetarianism/veganism please. It's a personal choice.
Actually, with regard to your point #2: You do get sufficient iron, calcium, etc. in a vegan/vegetarian diet without the need for supplements. (If you eat the right foods, but this same caveat holds true if you eat omnivorous). A variety of legumes, vegetables, and fruits, grains and nuts, and you're there. If you just ate meat without that stuff you won't be properly nourished either. Meats lack vitamins, fiber, anti-oxidants and other essential nutrients for health.

As for the dairy-proponents, the cultures that eat the most cows milk and cheese have the highest epidemiological rates of hip fracture and osteoporosis. The reason is that people who consume a lot of dairy also consume a lot of meat (overall) and the high meat protein intake causes an acidic rise in the body, which the body neutralizes by drawing calcium from the bones. Cow milk has also been linked to type 1 diabetes and other auto-immune diseases including MS. (I posted reference links earlier in ths thread).

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
It intrigues me that vegetarians and vegans exude the benefits of their choice as being natural, yet NEED to revert to artificial and unnatural means to supplement dietary deficiencies and nutrients that would be obtained by meat, fish, fowl or even eggs.

Nothing like promulgating the pill popping culture.

It's such a first world thing.
You get B12 from eating meat and fish. B12 is made in the small intestine of animals (in humans, downstream from where it can be absorbed) so unless you eat meats or dairy (or vegetables contaminated by feces) you need a B12 supplement. Most multivitamins have it, and you don't need much. Most people could go 3 years without any B12 before developing a deficiency. OTOH, the majority of Americans eat so much sugar and processed foods, make meat the main course, and eat deep-fried foods so that they don't eat enough plant-based "whole" foods to get the vitamins and other nutrients they need, so they need supplements too (along with antacids, hemmoroid medications, insulin, statins, and coronary surgery ).

If it weren't for the heavy metals and toxins accumulated in fish I would think a whole-foods plant-based diet supplemented by fish would be the healthiest diet. In any event, it would be healthier to have larger portions of whole plant-based foods than meat on your plate.

If people cut-out the sweetened and processed foods, and started thinking of the side dishes as the main course and the meat as the side dish -- it would be a step in the right direction, health-wise.
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