Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-03-2014, 13:14   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongleur View Post
Carbohydrates are made up of sugar molecules
all stuck together. You could look it up.
They're also made of atoms all stuck together. Might win arguments, but doesn't signify.

The body deals with incoming stuff based partly on shape (exterior contours), often more than constituents.

That's why big pharma sorts potential naturally occurring compounds chiefly by shape, when trying to find new drugs with similar properties to existing ones.

In many cases, things which are sweet trigger similar responses*, whether they're a sweet sugar (like fructose) or an artificial sweetener.

And the reason artificial sweeteners taste sweet?

Mostly about shape. They trick receptors on the tongue into emitting the same signal, because it's shape recognition that causes the receptors to fire.

Certainly nothing to do with the constituent elements.


*such as the upkick in insulin production, which blocks reception by the brain of the leptin message which tells the brain to stop eating. That's why people still get obese drinking diet Coke: it screws with their appetite control, just like 'real' Coke.


CAVEAT: I don't KNOW the above to be true.
In my defence, nobody "KNOWS" anything about how stuff like this works.
__________________

__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 13:33   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
You may want to think twice on milk as your chosen drink these days:

Harvard study: Pasteurized milk from industrial dairies linked to cancer

First paragraph:

The truth has once again shaken the foundation of the 'American Tower of Babel' that is mainstream science, with a new study out of Harvard University showing that pasteurized milk product from factory farms is linked to causing hormone-dependent cancers. It turns out that the concentrated animal feeding operations (CAFO) model of raising cows on factory farms churns out milk with dangerously high levels of estrone sulfate, an estrogen compound linked to testicular, prostate, and breast cancers

Harvard study: Pasteurized milk from industrial dairies linked to cancer
I think you missed out the word "some" from your first sentence. This is an international forum. Besides, it is not milk causing the cancer.

From the same article you quote from, milk resulting from "concentrated animal feeding operations" (CAFO) is contrasted with:

<<raw, grass-fed, organic milk from cows milked at the proper times is linked to improving digestion, healing autoimmune disorders, and boosting overall immunity, which can help prevent cancer.>>

In NZ where I live, organic milk is readily available which does not come from "industrial dairies".

And even on factory farms, CAFO is not practiced; most cows here are grass feds, except during droughts (which is a worry - some 'factory' farms feed palm kernel, which is the main reason for my interest in organic milk).
They are bred to thrive on grass, and for improved quality rather than (as in the US) quantity of milk.

Having said that, even in some parts of the US, I believe it is still possible to get real (local) milk.

Ironically, the US dairy industry is heavily protected, making it hard to get dairy products from healthier (and more efficient) sources within the US.
__________________

__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 14:06   #63
Registered User
 
Neeltje's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Boat: 1902 Dutch Tjalk, 64'
Posts: 297
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Personally, I prefer the goat's milk I was raised on, and since it's a cottage industry here in the US, it's less likely to contain enormous amounts of steroids and antibiotics.

I've been going through at least a quart a day of the stuff for close on 65 years, and my decennial check-ups have yet to detect the slightest excessive cholesterol, high blood pressure or blood sugar.

Granted, most people don't warm up to the smell of it at first, but once you're hooked on it, it goes down like a single malt.

The icing on the cake is that if a given third-world destination is too poor to have milk cows, you can bet your booty they'll have goats.

Jacques
__________________
Neeltje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 16:29   #64
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Central California
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 873
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Not trying to pick a fight here, as I agree
with much of what you say, but your comment:
"They're also made of atoms all stuck together."
Is reducto absurdum. They are further made up
of electrons, protons and muons.

The issue is that available carbohydrates act
exactly the same in the body as sugar.
__________________
Bill
...........................................
You can't buy happiness, but you can buy ribeye.
jongleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 17:31   #65
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Carbs, even whole wheat, and whole grains turn into sugar. Sugar pushes the insulin up, sugar glycates the otherwise helpful LDL that drags cholesterol about, this makes them sticky so they stick to the arterial walls. Sugar also glycates haemoglobin and lipoproteins which reduces the HDL. Hyperglycaemia also increases oxidized LDL and with glycated LDL forms plaques... The liver can't remove LDL when its glycated so the LDL stays in the blood stream...

Its all about sugar. Sugar comes from carbs.

If you are fat, diabetic, unfit, had a heart attack or have it in the family get off Carbs. And then that bad old LDL will be good LDL again.

BTW saturated fat does not increase the risk of heart disease or CVD and lowers the incidence of stroke.

The research is out there, doctors are cottoning on ti it, but it will still take a few more years and good quality research before its all accepted.


__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 18:17   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Carbs, even whole wheat, and whole grains turn into sugar. Sugar pushes the insulin up, sugar glycates the otherwise helpful LDL that drags cholesterol about, this makes them sticky so they stick to the arterial walls. Sugar also glycates haemoglobin and lipoproteins which reduces the HDL. Hyperglycaemia also increases oxidized LDL and with glycated LDL forms plaques... The liver can't remove LDL when its glycated so the LDL stays in the blood stream...

Its all about sugar. Sugar comes from carbs.

If you are fat, diabetic, unfit, had a heart attack or have it in the family get off Carbs. And then that bad old LDL will be good LDL again.

BTW saturated fat does not increase the risk of heart disease or CVD and lowers the incidence of stroke.

The research is out there, doctors are cottoning on ti it, but it will still take a few more years and good quality research before its all accepted.


There is a common, often disproved theory even among many medical professionals that weight is all about calories. I say disproved because so many have lost weight on low carb diets where their calorie input was still high. So in the accepted theory, it was impossible for them to lose. But they did.

1972, Robert Atkins. Low Carb. Now, understand Atkins was not a diet doctor at that time. He was a Cardiologist. He went on a diet based on Alfred Pennington's theories and it worked. He appeared on the tonight show in 1965. But the book in 1972 kicked off a new approach and rethinking to the entire theory of diet. Now, still it was not until the 90's when it resurfaced that it became the hot new fad in diets. Meanwhile diabetic diets started following course and others such as the Rachael and Richard Heller at Mt. Sinai started legitimatizing the approach as Atkins was considered by many more a traveling side show.

Now there are various developments and even Atkins started looking at good carbs vs. bad carbs. But the basics remain the same of carbs becoming sugars and of insulin production.

Meanwhile cholesterol became the big talking point of the profession. Much of that as a result of drugs for treatment of cholesterol. They became the biggest selling drugs in history and the most profitable. Unfortunately doctors were looking at one lab in isolation. Often they were ignoring Triglycerides which can be more indicative of issues. And even then their theories on controlling cholesterol were poor and centered just on more drugs. They were largely ignoring the risks of long term use as well.

Why so slow and futile an effort on weight loss and control? Simple really. Weight issues were too long considered a character flaw rather than looked at in a scientific manner. So the medical profession didn't come up with solutions while the charlatans who could market their products in every drug store and grocery store were offering magic treatments, the snake oil of the times.

Now, different diets do work better for different people and many who have balanced eating habits need no diet. In fact with most people just a few small modifications to their eating habits can help them lead a healthy life without weight problems. But others need scientifically based advise and help which is too often not forthcoming. The doctors who simply say to exercise more and eat fewer calories aren't offering help, but simply parroting something they've heard for years. If it was that simple, then there would be far less problem. Then we go low fat and the further we've gone with that the heavier the population has become.

Now how the milk discussion wandered here, typical forum topic movement. But, milk like anything else isn't something in isolation. If one drinks it and they are healthy and otherwise their diet balances any negatives of the milk, then they should continue and enjoy it. If, on the other hand, one does have health issues, weight or otherwise, and the milk might be contributing, then they should rethink their consumption. Nothing wrong with having our guilty pleasures as long as they are otherwise balanced and not harming us.
__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 19:12   #67
Registered User
 
Neeltje's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Boat: 1902 Dutch Tjalk, 64'
Posts: 297
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

You can continue to dissect your eating habits until the cows come home, but it all boils down to eating and drinking whatever you like IN MODERATION.

If it means anything, the Somalis and Bengalese top the list of the most "cholesterol free" people on the planet, and as far as I know, they rarely consult dieticians...

Jacques
__________________
Neeltje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 19:56   #68
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Central California
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 873
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

MarkJ and BandB:

Excellent synopses of the situation. Well done.

As I've suggested before, check out Diet Doctor - Real food for your health

Or read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes.
__________________
Bill
...........................................
You can't buy happiness, but you can buy ribeye.
jongleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 20:01   #69
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,673
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

In Colorado, where my daughter lives, it is illegal to sell raw cow's milk. However, it is possible to buy shares in a cow, and then you can have "real" milk.

However, those sorts of laws vary from State to State, so it may be easier some places than others to get what you want.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-03-2014, 20:14   #70
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Hey, BandB your info is a bit old

Just a coupla research papers for ya...
2010 http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/EJIM_PUBLISHED.pdf Nutrition and Alzheimer's disease: The detrimental role of a high carbohydrate diet
2005 Hyperglycemia, lipoprotein glycation, and ... [Angiology. 2005 Jul-Aug] - PubMed - NCBI Hyperglycemia, lipoprotein glycation, and vascular disease.

2007 Non enzymatic glycated proteins in the blood ... [Curr Pharm Des. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI Non enzymatic glycated proteins in the blood and cardiovascular disease.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2014, 02:56   #71
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neeltje View Post
.........

Granted, most people don't warm up to the smell of it at first, but once you're hooked on it, it goes down like a single malt.
.........

Jacques
Of course if you rather not get hooked (ie addicted), just stick to the single malts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongleur View Post
Not trying to pick a fight here, as I agree
with much of what you say, but your comment:
"They're also made of atoms all stuck together."
Is reducto absurdum. They are further made up
of electrons, protons and muons.

The issue is that available carbohydrates act
exactly the same in the body as sugar
.
All not trying to pick a fight but I find this interestingly wrong - depending on your definition of sugar.

Common sugar (sucrose) as derived from sugar cane is roughly comprised of fructose and glucose (50 / 50). The body deals with these two "sugars" completely differently. You can survive for very long periods on a glucose drip but you can't survive very well (or perhaps not at all) of a fructose drip.

Carbohydrates are processed by the digestive system and is converted into glucose but not fructose.

Glucose is good for the body; fructose not so much.

Fructose tastes "sweeter" than glucose.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2014, 03:09   #72
Registered User
 
bill good's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: sold
Posts: 721
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

When we were travelling about the USA, the UHT was never on the shelf & if it was in store it was in the chiller!! The use by date is extremely short by Australian Standards. Many places just did not understand UHT longlife milk!!
__________________
bill good is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2014, 03:47   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
...
Glucose is good for the body; fructose not so much.

Fructose tastes "sweeter" than glucose.
Good point, Wotname.

Glucose is not just good for us, it's so essential that if necessary we can produce it (or perhaps 'reclaim' it).


Fructose is starting to look somewhat like an evil twin to glucose in terms, among other things, of the effect on appetite control.

This effect appears to be linked to sweetness.

Much of the conventional wisdom on things like Glycemic Index seems to have been erected on shonky understandings.

Moreover, important links in the appetite control system* such as leptin, sabotaged by eating sweet stuff, were only discovered in the 1990s.

It may be (and here I'm speculating) that the sweetness signals in question are those from the tastebuds, in which case it's immaterial that a certain sugar might be released when a carbohydrate breaks down, later in the process.

I say this to illustrate that reducing food to its component parts is not necessarily helpful to understanding, and whether or not what I wrote above is true, it is a plausible TYPE of situation which invalidates a (reductive) TYPE of thinking.

*which is remarkably effective when we eat food rather than product, and for instance stops wild animals getting obese even with relatively unlimited access to food.

As an experiment I have during the last year tried cutting out all foods with added sugar, such as cookies, fruit juice, tonic water, desserts, etc... and after as little as a month I had, without needing to exert any other form of willpower, completely stopped snacking between meals, or eating when I was not actually hungry ["recreational" eating!], and could happily get by on about 70% of what had already been (by modern standards) a very moderate food intake.

I am not dieting; I'm eating as much as I want.
That just happens to be: not much.

Energy? not a problem. I evidently metabolise a lot better than I was, and don't waste a lot of energy digesting stuff I don't actually need to have eaten.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2014, 04:43   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: san diego
Boat: yorktown custom 40' cutter
Posts: 228
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

dairy is a filthy industry, and as a grown up adult mammal you should have been weened by age four. basic human biology wants you off the teet...

do yourself a favor and read a book called "the china study". lousy title, great info.

sorry for the thread hijack, just my .02
__________________
robwilk37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2014, 16:49   #75
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Central California
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 873
Re: Regular Whole Milk Questions

Wotname said:
"... I find this interestingly wrong...
...Carbohydrates are processed by the digestive
system and is [sic] converted into glucose..."


Why would you say something is wrong and then
a couple of sentences later, confirm that it is true?

Difficult to have a discussion with tactics like that.
__________________

__________________
Bill
...........................................
You can't buy happiness, but you can buy ribeye.
jongleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long Term Refit Cradle, motor, hull paint Questions Patrol Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 02-07-2012 06:01
A List of General Questions Notpopeye General Sailing Forum 8 12-03-2012 19:45
Milk - Anyone know a tasty brand of milk powder ? Lin Pardey Provisioning: Food & Drink 86 08-02-2012 05:51
Newbie Mac-OpenCPN - Questions Please jonnyquest OpenCPN 0 16-01-2012 14:19



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.