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Old 30-11-2007, 08:22   #16
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Seafox-
Check out:
Ciguatera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ciguatera is a foodborne illness poisoning in humans caused by eating marine species whose flesh is contaminated with a toxin known as ciguatoxin, ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
US FDA/CFSAN - Bad Bug Book - Ciguatera

Caused by the consumption of subtropical and tropical marine finfish which have accumulated naturally occurring dinoflagellate toxins through their diet.
www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap36.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

It was big news maybe 15-20 years ago when someone (Practical Sailor?) mentioned that there was a rumor you could put KoRecType (the original brand of liquid white out) on fish, and uspposedly it would turn purplish if the fish was tainted.

Now apparently there is supposed to be a test kit:

Cigua-Check Fish Poison Test Kit $30US for a 3-test kit. If the poisonous algae doesn't grow in your waters, and you don't eat the fish that eat the fish that eat the poisonous algae, no problem. Otherwise...To misquote my mother, "Don't take strangers for food". [g]

There is a cheaper test kit, if you have a ship's cat onboard. Or, rather, a small supply of them. Feed the cat--if it doesn't get sick, the fish is safe to eat. (Yeah, well, life wasn't all fair for the canary in the oal mines, either.)
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Old 30-11-2007, 08:37   #17
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See also, the previous CF discussion on “CIGUATERA POISONING” at:
CIGUATERA POISONING
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Old 30-11-2007, 12:30   #18
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here is a cheaper test kit, if you have a ship's cat onboard. Or, rather, a small supply of them. Feed the cat--if it doesn't get sick, the fish is safe to eat. (Yeah, well, life wasn't all fair for the canary in the oal mines, either.)
I wondered why wheels had two cats on board.
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Old 30-11-2007, 13:14   #19
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The Kindley Air Force Base Fishing Club held a large tournament offshore Bermuda and afterwards all met at one of the officer's house for a fish cookout. Late that night the last guest left and the lady of the house told her husband that she could not face all these fishy dishes in the morning so they set about cleaning up and putting dishes thru several fillings of the dishwasher. Early in the process she found a plate of uneaten barracuda and told her husband she'd put it out for the cat. She called the cat and left it eating the barracuda.

When, much later, she went out to get the last plate, she found the dead cat next to the plate and she panicked. She called Colonel Frese, Kindley's head of the KAFB Hospital, who had been at the banquet, told him about the cat and asked what to do? Colonel Frese told her to organize a telephone network and get everyone who had been at the party to the hospital to have their stomachs pumped!

In the very wee hours of the morning, as she and her husband came back from the hospital, the neighbor's wife came over and told her "Honey, I did not want to spoil your party last night, but at 2AM when I drove my husband to the Base to fly a WB-50, I ran over your cat. Rather than spoil your evening I laid her at the door and figured to tell you this morning."

The fish wife grabbed her by the throat and told her that, on the pain of sudden death, mention this to no one on the base. She said "Because of your kindness we pumped the stomachs of 40 couples and there are 80 unhappy officers and their wives who would get violent if they knew."

So watch the cat eat the fish and keep track of it afterward so it doesn't get hit by a car!
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Old 30-11-2007, 16:51   #20
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amberjack, barracudas, blackfin snapper, black grouper, hog fish, horse eyed jack, dog snapper, cubera snapper, and yellow fin grouper are all listed as possible carriers of Ciguteria. Harmful Algal Blooms: Ciguatera Fish Poisoning: Fish Identification | CDC HSB
As long as you eat small ones you are ok. The toxins build up to the toxic level as the predator fish continues to eat the smaller reef fish. Which with Diane's illnesses we don't take a chance, unless tested with the "cigua Check" kit. We mainly just eat Pelagic fish which do not carry the toxins!
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Old 30-11-2007, 17:31   #21
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Thumbs up Monteray Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch

Here's some interesting info from the MBA site:
Monterey Bay Aquarium: Seafood Watch Program - A Consumer's Guide to Sustainable Seafood

a printable pocket guide:
Monterey Bay Aquarium: Download a Regional Seafood Watch Card
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Old 30-11-2007, 21:17   #22
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Never heard of cigutera here Sean. I guess we are pretty lucky. We get the odd algle bloom and have to stop eating shellfish for a few weeks but our fish is good. Is it like a flu? What causes it, food poisoning?
Food poisoning is caused by bacteria. Ciguatera is caused by a biotoxin. Certain dinoflagellates, a type of phytoplankton and sometimes zooplankton, are capable of producing certain biotoxins that are bioaccumulative and then biomagnify as they get carried up the food chain to fish. By the time the toxin gets to the larger predatory fish, it is concentrated enough to affect people who eat the fish.
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Old 01-12-2007, 08:34   #23
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Food poisoning is caused by bacteria. Ciguatera is caused by a biotoxin. Certain dinoflagellates, a type of phytoplankton and sometimes zooplankton, are capable of producing certain biotoxins that are bioaccumulative and then biomagnify as they get carried up the food chain to fish. By the time the toxin gets to the larger predatory fish, it is concentrated enough to affect people who eat the fish.
Except that scrombroid ( a type of food poisoning) is also caused by a biotoxin. The scrombroid bacteria produce a byproduct (like with botulism), and it's that poison, not the bacteria, that hurt you.

Ciguatera is also bioaccumulative in people. The more reef fish you eat that have bits of the toxin in them, the more it can build in your system. So, someone who has had ciguatera is much more sensitive to small doeses of the toxin that might not affect an otherwise healty person eating the same fish with them.

All said... I'm getting some cod from a fish market and stewing up a nice fish chowder on the Dickenson heater this afternoon. The stuff is just too good to resist!
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Old 01-12-2007, 13:57   #24
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Except that scrombroid ( a type of food poisoning) is also caused by a biotoxin. The scrombroid bacteria produce a byproduct (like with botulism), and it's that poison, not the bacteria, that hurt you.

Ciguatera is also bioaccumulative in people. The more reef fish you eat that have bits of the toxin in them, the more it can build in your system. So, someone who has had ciguatera is much more sensitive to small doeses of the toxin that might not affect an otherwise healty person eating the same fish with them.

All said... I'm getting some cod from a fish market and stewing up a nice fish chowder on the Dickenson heater this afternoon. The stuff is just too good to resist!
I was only referring to Ciguatera.
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Old 01-12-2007, 16:17   #25
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The ocean is CLEANER than it was 40 years ago.
There must be some secret program removing the millions of tons of garbage dumped in the ocean by coastal cities that I do not know about--not to mention sewage outfalls.

Nice to know the oil is not leaking from well coastal shafts and that tank washing is not done near the coast any more and with better detergents--but floating oil lumps are peanuts compared to the crimes still being committed against the ocean--where the belief is if garbage, toxic wastes, nuclear wastes and sewage is out of sight we do not have to think about it any longer.

Cleaner than 40 years ago? Not where I live it ain't.
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Old 05-12-2007, 06:40   #26
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In Oz, there are a few species to leave alone and some of the big stuff supposedly has cigi.

I found it interesting that in New Cal large Pelagics supposedly had Cigi but coral trout were OK.

A couple of hundred miles away at Vanuatu large pelagics are OK, but all red fish (apart from poulet fish) apparently have cigi.

The locals would eat large Barracuda, but would not eat this coral trout that we ended up putting in crab pots (I nearly cried)

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Old 05-12-2007, 06:46   #27
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I found it interesting that in New Cal large Pelagics supposedly had Cigi but coral trout were OK.


Dave
that is odd, as I was taught that pelagics were safe, as they don't eat the reef fish where the toxins begin
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Old 05-12-2007, 07:08   #28
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I did say large pelagics as in anything over about 10kg

Just what I was told by the locals. Red fish in Vanuatu though is a definite no no. Got that from locals, restaurants who were buying fish and a mate who owns a resort/Island



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Old 05-12-2007, 09:59   #29
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As far as the ocean being cleaner than it was 40 years ago... remember that about 60 years ago thousands of ships were sunk, many of them tankers, during WW2. German U-Boats alone sunk close to 2,800 ships. Many of those were tankers hauling things such as oil or fuel. Even 20 years after they were sunk,(roughly 40 years ago) some of the pollution would still remain. Even today, the USS Arizona is still leaking oil into Pearl Harbor. So I would agree that probably the waters are much cleaner than they were 40 years ago, but that would not be true if it weren't for World War 1 and 2.
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Old 05-12-2007, 14:05   #30
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Sluissa, I'd agree with you--but also remember that even without the WWs, ships would routinely pump waste and oily ballast tanks on the way in and out of port. So even without the sunken tankers, there was oil intentionally being pumped out on a daily basis.

I also remember my mother having to use tar remover on us after we'd been in the ocean, not all the time but often enough. As oil bounces around $100/bbl I wonder when it pays to start running out with a hose and salvaging any of those old tankers?[g]
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