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Old 16-06-2007, 19:29   #1
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Now what do i do with my Powersurvivor 40E ??

We bought a Powersurvivor 40E off eBay, it was pulled out of a cruising yacht 4 years ago, pickled then left to sit until early April this year, some water was run through it before being put on eBay and then we bought it in mid April but it was not repickled. It was late May by the time we got the unit and now I can deal with the treatment and cleaning of the unit. It came with pre filters, o rings but no chemicals.

I have got some Sodium Metabisulphite powder that is suppose to be a good pickling for the watermakers. Now how much do I use and what steps should I undertake to bring this unit back to life ?

Should I descale it ?

I will strip the unit down to service the O rings and lubricate the parts, so should I treat the memberan out of the unit or while it is in the vessel ?

Any advice appreciated ?

Mick
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Old 16-06-2007, 23:45   #2
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Actually on refering to the data, I bought it in march and received it in May (that is a long story).

I am not able to run seawater through it until october as I am living and working away from the cost for the next 4-5 mths. All I can run through it is tap water that is unique in Australia as it has No Chlorine or No Fluorides in it (it is in a national Park).

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Old 17-06-2007, 00:40   #3
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Don't run fresh water through the membrane under working pressure, it will likely rupture as everything tries to pass through it rather than the usual 10% (approx). As long as the membrane has been kept wet it should be OK to give it a long flush when you finally commission it.
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Old 17-06-2007, 06:51   #4
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I will pull the book off the boat and give you more info, but you can run fresh water through it to flush, that is in fact recommended, but lift the flush valve.

If you aren't going to use it for a few days, flush with fresh water after use.

Chemicals for this unit are readily available on line if not in marine stores in OZ.

George
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Old 18-06-2007, 10:39   #5
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Running fresh water through it won't hurt it at all as long as there isn't oil or chlorine in it. You will probably get more "product" water and less "brine", but that's normal.

I've had 3 different watermakers on 2 different boats over my sailing years (current one is a Spectra 180), and I haven't used any pickling solution
in years. I just pickle it in its own product water. Here in the Pacific Northwest, that lasts for at least 6 months with no problems.

If you want to use Sodium Metabisulfite, a little goes a long way.
a teaspoon per gallon of water is what I'd use.

Steve B.
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Old 18-06-2007, 13:28   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico
Running fresh water through it won't hurt it at all as long as there isn't oil or chlorine in it. You will probably get more "product" water and less "brine", but that's normal.
.
WRONG WRONG WRONG
Freshwater under working pressure will most likely damage the membrane.
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Old 18-06-2007, 21:29   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico
Running fresh water through it won't hurt it at all as long as there isn't oil or chlorine in it. You will probably get more "product" water and less "brine", but that's normal.
.


WRONG WRONG WRONG
Freshwater under working pressure will most likely damage the membrane.


Then how come the output INCREASES from 6.3 gph to almost 10 gph while the amperage draw DECREASES from 8 amps to about 7 and the pressure DECREASES from 800 PSI to about 700?

I've done this for about 7 years with my Spectra with NO problems at all, and it still performs to spec or slightly better.

Steve B.
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:39   #8
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If your watermaker is running within specs in fresh water then the membrane is over specced which is a good thing. Very few factory units are over specced in membrane size and it is the increased volume of water passing through the membrane that will destroy it, not the pressure. The reason the pressure & current decrease is because the membrane is offering less resistance to the purer raw water.
You gotta trust me on this, I've made water from 75N to 77S as part of my job. #1 cause for sudden membrane failure is too much flow through the membrane, usually associated with sailing across a high flow rivermouth or similar.
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Old 19-06-2007, 10:07   #9
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I use the Spectra in salt water. It produces to spec on battery voltage, and a little over when the engine is running. It acts as I just posted when backflushing.
I guess I'm just lucky, but it seems to me that the increased flow is due to less resistance because there isn't any salt needing to be flushed away.

I don't understand why increased flow through the membrane due to decreased resistance would cause any damage.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Steve B.
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Old 19-06-2007, 16:11   #10
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Imagine a paper towel stretched over a frame. Dribble some water on it & it will soak through. Now dump a gallon on it and it will tear. Same with a membrane. The product water side of an RO system doesn't really need flushing, it is the raw water side that does and the best way to achieve this is to run water through the membrane unit with the back pressure valve fully released so everything runs to brine and nothing passes across the membrane material. If you have a backflushing system even better, it does the same but in the opposite direction. I think there may be some confusion about what actually constitutes the membrane. A membrane unit consists of multiple layers of wicking material, seperator sheets and the "membrane" material itself. All these layers are wound up into a continuous roll.
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Old 19-06-2007, 21:41   #11
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OK - I am a little confused here. If I open the valve then it is OK to use fresh water, but if I don't then it may damage the membrane ?Another option - if I do not flush the membrane with the powered component of the watermaker and instead, use the manual pump handle that the unit comes with. Would that still damage the unit or due to the lesser flow, allow us to flush through the membrane without worrying about damage.CiaoMick
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Old 19-06-2007, 23:43   #12
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I'm sorry Ribbony, I'm not familiar with the powersurvivor but if there is a pressure v/v then yes, back this right off to flush. Pumping by hand will probably be OK as long as you don't exceed the rated output (4l/hr I think)
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Old 20-06-2007, 01:47   #13
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Powersurvivor 40E (R/O Watermaker) Owners’ Manual:
http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/libra...40E_manual.pdf

Membrane Storage, Biociding & Cleaning
(pages 15 - 17)

... Cleaning the membrane is only necessary if contaminants are deposited on, and adhere to, the membrane surface in sufficient amounts to affect the output of product freshwater. Usually this condition also causes battery current to increase. There are two main types of such deposits and a different chemical cleaner is needed for each type:

• Organic Growth—usually caused by processing brackish water or failure to properly store a membrane during extended periods of nonuse. Use Alkaline Cleaner.

• Mineral Scale—caused by mineral impurities in the intake water
supply. Use Acid Cleaner.
The only indication that a membrane might benefit from cleaning is a substantial reduction in the quantity of product freshwater output, all other factors being normal (e.g., battery voltage, salinity, seawater temperature). The best way to detect such a problem is by keeping an accurate log of product freshwater output at known battery voltages. Such a practice is highly recommended.
If you have determined that your membrane needs cleaning and you know the type of deposits (mineral or organic), use the appropriate cleaner. If you do not know the nature of the deposits, try cleaning first with the Alkaline Cleaner and check for improvement in product freshwater output.
If output remains poor, repeat the cleaning process using the Acid Cleaner. Never mix the two types of cleaners! Always flush well with clean water between processes if performing both alkaline
and acid cleaning.

The following directions apply for both types of membrane cleaners:

1. Lift the lever on the cleaning valve on the pump to place it in its “clean” or “up” position (see Figure 12 - page 15).

2. Discard any dirty seawater in the prefilter assembly. Clean the housing and install a clean filter.

3. Fill a clean plastic container or bucket with one gallon (approximately 4 liters) of clean water.
Freshwater is preferable, but clean seawater may be used if freshwater is not available.
(Caution: Never use chlorinated freshwater. This may damage the membrane.)

4. Mix four spoonful (approximately 40 grams) of either Acid Cleaner or Alkaline Cleaner (not both!) with the water in the container and stir until the cleaner is completely dissolved. The water should be warm, but not over 120̊ F (49̊ C).

5. Turn the lever on the prefilter 3way valve to the alternate intake position. Run the 3/16" alternate intake hose with the strainer attached into the container of cleaning solution.

6. Disconnect the reject brine water hose from its drain (or use a separate length of hose) to route the reject brine water back into the container of cleaning solution during the following procedure.

7. Turn on the watermaker. Discard any solution coming from the reject brine hose for about 30 seconds. Then run the reject brine water hose back into the container of cleaning solution to allow recirculation of the cleaner.

8. Continue to run the watermaker for about 15 minutes, to assure that the cleaning solution is well circulated through the pump and membrane.

9. Turn off the watermaker and allow the membrane to soak in the cleaning solution for 5 to 10 hours, or overnight. For severe fouling, repeat steps 8 and 9 of this procedure.

10. When the soaking is finished, remove the reject brine hose from the cleaning solution container and run the watermaker again. Discard the first pulses of the reject brine water.
When the reject brine flow becomes cleaner, return the reject brine hose to the cleaning solution container for recirculation.

11. Continue to run the watermaker and recirculate the cleaning solution for another 30 to 60 minutes

12. When cleaning is complete, turn off the watermaker. Reconnect the reject brine hose to its normal drain location.

13. Remove the alternate intake hose and strainer from the cleaning solution and place them into a container of clean, warm (nonchlorinated) freshwater. If freshwater is not available, clean seawater may be used if its temperature is above 68̊ F (20̊ C).

14. Turn on the watermaker and flush warm water through the system for 5 minutes.
If the watermaker will be stored for more than a week (three days in warm climates), it should now be treated with the biocide solution.
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Old 26-06-2007, 03:48   #14
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Thanks all.

Now it's time to service it. The katadyn description in the downloadable manual is well detailed and coupled with the tips in the watermaker section of the cruisersforums, we should get the job done.

mick
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Old 29-06-2007, 00:25   #15
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Done !

I stripped the unit, cleaned it, replaced or reinstalled the "o" rings and seals with the silicone grease. After reassembly I manually pumped some fresh water through and had a trickle output from the fresh water outlet, the brine outlet had yuccky grey fluid for a while coming out. Once it was clear output in all departments i mixed up the Biocide. i used a tablespoon of Sodium Metabisulphite to 2lt of warm water. I then pumped this trough the unit (manually) and then pumped it until dry (the output flow ceased). I needed to run the excess liquid out of the unit as where I will store it freezing is possible.

I could not use the 12v motor as I had no convenient power to use where I worked on the watermaker. that test can wait until it is on the vessel next summer.

Next summer if the unit does not pump to specs then we can try the various cleaners and keep the fingers crossed.
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