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Old 11-01-2008, 10:53   #106
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At this point most everything read above, whew.

*Freeze everything you can freeze before leaving, (it also serves as ice)
*Farmers used to keep eggs indefinately stored in "lime water" (same as whitewash)
until they could get them to market and sell.
*Old timers used to lower wine deep into the waters to chill
*powdered milk, if it rests a bit, it tastes much closer to fresh milk (use as dry creamer too)
*root crops kept out of moisture, light and heat will last longer than your voyage to the next port

We frequently sailed on 10 days passages without fridge, eating fresh meats (as they thawed in storage (always packed the frozen stuff together).

Other than this, most everything esle has been said.
so Adios, have a nice sail!



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Old 11-01-2008, 13:01   #107
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how big is the typical block of ice? Is there a standard?

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Old 11-01-2008, 13:15   #108
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Regarding refriges..

Talked to a refrig guru yesterday and his latest advice for long term no-hassle is to go with your std. danfoss sealed compressor units with plates into a heavily insulated box. He's pretty happy with current state of the art, advising the engine driven compressors only for guys who are willing to spend the time and money to build big 'pull down' units for storing lots of fish etc., and to pay to keep the system running.

I still haven't made my final decision on the new installation, but running out of time, so going to have jump one way or the other, or both pretty soon.

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Old 11-01-2008, 18:11   #109
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Concerning propane dangers:
The leaks would be so small, that there is almost no chance of an ignition, anybody that has tried to light a propane torch will tell you how difficult it is to light and the amount you need to have a sustained fire will rarely be there. If it is, it sure won't be there for long with 1 pound in the system. Sure there may be one propane explosion or fire a year in a wreck, but I'm sure there are hundreds of gasoline fires in wrecks and we don't outlaw gasoline. The advantages of propane refrigerant so outweigh the dangers. It saves money, the environment and is simple to do. Almost everything has dangers, you have to weigh the dangers with the benefits.
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Old 11-01-2008, 19:58   #110
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So, what? Is it a military-industrial complex conspiracy by EI DuPont DeNemours & Co. to force us to use their products instead of propane in AC systems? (Hey, they helped sponsor the American Revolution, if anyone has influence, it should be them.)
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Old 11-01-2008, 23:54   #111
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No conspiracy, people just not thinking right in my opinion. They discount it right off the bat, we can't use something that is flammable. Thinking it might cause a fire , not thinking about the obvious, that there is a whole lot more danger in the fuel tank and fuel delivery system of the vehicle. You've got to look at the whole package, doing a complete cost (environmental, financial and injury) benefit study. I've been running propane as refrigerant in my car for a couple decades, ever since I found out from a friend who had been doing it for more than 10 years before me. If you do it, you should label the system with a R-290 tag to alert other people that might work on the system. I certainly wouldn't put a propane tag on it, that's just asking for trouble from people that haven't thought it through, like the law. It's probably against the law, maybe not if you label it though.

The refrigerant companies sure don't want it to change, there is big money in refrigerants, that's for sure.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:16   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jheldatksuedu View Post
No conspiracy, people just not thinking right in my opinion. They discount it right off the bat, we can't use something that is flammable. Thinking it might cause a fire , not thinking about the obvious, that there is a whole lot more danger in the fuel tank and fuel delivery system of the vehicle. You've got to look at the whole package, doing a complete cost (environmental, financial and injury) benefit study. I've been running propane as refrigerant in my car for a couple decades, ever since I found out from a friend who had been doing it for more than 10 years before me. If you do it, you should label the system with a R-290 tag to alert other people that might work on the system. I certainly wouldn't put a propane tag on it, that's just asking for trouble from people that haven't thought it through, like the law. It's probably against the law, maybe not if you label it though.

The refrigerant companies sure don't want it to change, there is big money in refrigerants, that's for sure.
Very interesting.
Same orifice?
There is something about the lubricant with the old and new "freon".
I know little about it.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:51   #113
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“Technical Propane" - R290 Refrigerant
Technical Propane, as opposed to common LPG fuel, consists primarily of a mixture of Propane (C3H8) and Propylene (C3H6).

I believe that (USA) Hydrocarbons are prohibited refrigerants in domestic use.

Medium temperature commercial refrigeration equipment designed to use hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) refrigerant HFC-410A performs better in a life cycle climate performance (LCCP) analysis than equipment designed for propane, a flammable hydrocarbon (HC) refrigerant with special safety requirements, according to a study by the Center for Environmental Energy Engineering (CEEE) at the University of Maryland. It was concluded that R-410A has less or equivalent environmental impact as compared to R-290 when safety (toxicity and flammability), environmental impact (climate change), cost and performance (capacity and COP) are considered.
See link 2 below.

Link 1:
Practical Application of Refrigerant R290 Propane in Small Hermetic Systems ~ from Danfoss
http://rc.danfoss.com/TechnicalInfo/...0_cn60f102.pdf

Link 2:
COMPARISON OF HYDROCARBON R-290 AND TWO HFC BLENDS R-404A AND R-410A FOR MEDIUM TEMPERATURE REFRIGERATION APPLICATIONS
by Yunho Hwang, Dae-Hyun Jin, Reinhard Radermacher (University of Maryland)

Goto: http://www.icarma.org/green/document...nal-030404.pdf

Excerpt:
“The environmental impact of refrigerants over the entire life cycle of fluid and equipment, including power consumption, is captured in the life cycle climate performance (LCCP) value. The lower the value, the lower the environmental impact.
In this report the LCCP of hydrocarbon R-290 (Propane) and the two HFC blends, R-410A and R-404A, were evaluated for an 11 kW medium temperature refrigeration system having -18 ̊C to 0 ̊C evaporator saturated refrigerant temperature.

Major findings of the current study are:
• The LCCP of R-410A is equal to that of R-290 and the LCCP of R-404A is 6.5% higher than that of R-290 for systems with condensing temperatures of 46.0̊C to 47.6̊C, which are representative of typical design practice.
• On an equal first cost basis, the LCCP of R-410A is 4.2% lower and the LCCP of R-404A is 1.8% higher than that of R-290. The underlying assumption is that the first cost of the R-290 system may be, for example, 10% higher due to added safety features, and on an equal cost basis, the HFC systems would use the additional cost for a larger
condenser.
• Since the underlying baseline test is based on a relatively small condenser, and since a conservative safety cost estimate is used, it is expected that the environmental impact of both R-404A and R-410A would be reduced further as compared to R-290 in future system designs...”
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Old 12-01-2008, 06:26   #114
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Then again, some yacht owners feel the need to install this onboard: Wine Cellar Innovations: custom wine cellar design: refrigeration: commercial, home
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Old 12-01-2008, 17:55   #115
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Cruising without a fridge

Has anyone tried harvesting wild vegetables? There are a few in Oz and a heck of a lot more available to those cruising the US shores I think.

The common milk thistle when young can be chopped up and washed thoroughly in a couple of changes of clean sea water (or fresh) before being steamed or added to other food. Treat it once washed as you would chi hi li in stir fries etc.

Mushrooms can sometimes be collected after rain. In some places edible berries exist-but these tend to be seasonal. There are other salad vegetables such as swine cress and watercress, horseradish, edible dock and stinging nettles (gather the young shoots using gloves). Steamed nettles are not particularly flavoursome but they are green and have vitamin C.

Neptune's necklace seaweed is edible as are sea lettuce and some other reef varieties--but small quantities to begin with. Specialist info for the regions you cruise are worth investigating. There is something to break a dry food diet almost anyplace one lands--if one knows what is on the local menu. New Zealand Spinach or as it is known in Oz "Botany Bay Greens" also grows wild on some coasts. Eat only young leaves.

Further towards the tropics other herbs and fruits become available. Some islands have coconuts (unless the current crop of non-indigenous feel-good idiots working for the parks have got rid of them all.) They were planted by the British Navy in the 18th and early 19th century to sustain the shipwrecked--now some clowns want them removed entirely. They do float down the current naturally--so not all of them were imports. In some places there was a bit of meat for the taking too--if one liked savon or venison--there is still pork a-plenty though. In some places they predate turtle nests--so getting rid of those pigs on the shore is a good thing.

I do not harvest birds or eggs of any kind but would do so in a survival situation.

I am not suggesting one can live only on gathered food--just that it is worth a try now and then. In the wet tropics one has to beware of crocodiles while gathering food. In some places it may simply be too dangerous.
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Old 02-02-2008, 21:55   #116
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Greenwald, Gibbons & Arora

I've been trying to adjust to life without refrigeration and found the 3 years of suggestions here very helpful.

I was surprised that no one mentioned Michael Greenwald's book The Cruising Chef Cookbook. He has a chapter devoted to food storage and stowage that reinforces some of the suggestions above. I happened upon the 1984 edition at a garage sale and found it to be a great read.

I guess I'm seeking reinforcements after succombing to food poisoning last fall. I had gone through life thinking I had an iron stomach, eating off the streets of Jakarta and farmers markets in France and Italy, only to get knocked down by a luke-warm ground beef burrito in my home town in California.

When I read posts suggesting reconstituting ancient meats with boiling water I now say to myself, yes, and boil it for 10-15 minutes.

The most recent suggestion to seek wild vegetables is also a great idea if approached with care. The late American guru on this subject is Euell Gibbons and his "stalking" books.

However, collecting wild mushrooms deserved the most specialized study. For cruisers in North America, consult David Arora's classic Mushrooms Demystified.

Good hunting!

David
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Old 02-02-2008, 22:59   #117
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NO!

Don't believe that cooking for 10-15 minutes is going to prevent food poisoning. Most common forms of food poisoning are a reaction to the toxin created by the pathogen, *not* the pathogen itself. And many of the toxins are not especially altered by cooking.

Yes, cook things well, but be very cautious when dealing with any form of preserved food.


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Old 02-02-2008, 23:24   #118
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Has anyone used the Coleman Stirling power coolers?
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:53   #119
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Don't believe that cooking for 10-15 minutes is going to prevent food poisoning. Most common forms of food poisoning are a reaction to the toxin created by the pathogen, *not* the pathogen itself. And many of the toxins are not especially altered by cooking.

Yes, cook things well, but be very cautious when dealing with any form of preserved food.

Amgine,

I'm all for caution! What sort of decision rules do you recommend regarding whether or not cooking (heat) will make something safe to eat?

Once you're a week or so out on a cruise, most provisions are not "fresh". What foods should be avoided on a long cruise if you don't have refrigeration?
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:35   #120
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As Amgine said, NO!

Among other surprises, you will find that almost anything grown in the ground can contain botulism spores. Cooking won't neutralize them. If you buy "potted" garlic that has been put up in oil...in theory it is safe and you might try to store it that way yourself. Nope. It needs additional acid (i.e. vitamin c) or other compounds to prevent the spores from growing and killing you.

The only way to be sure about food safety is the horrid old mantra "When in doubt, throw it out." if you don't know the source of the product, and what safe storage and handling actually IS for it...throw it out. There are things you just can't beat, that still can simply kill you--or worse.

The USDA has a lot of information about food safety online, some of it dates back 100 years and was started because folks just didn't have the option of ice boxes. It is still relevant and valid. Some of the old classic cookbooks (New Settlement Cookbook) have been revised and republished for nearly 100 years now--they have that information too.

And then there are campers and hikers and traditional camping foods. Pasta, tinned beans and sauce, peanut butter and jelly, hard cheeses, salami type cured meats and wursts...It ain't gourmet, but they are readily available and safe. For a week? Butter and eggs should be OK too. Don't forget fruits and vegetables, oranges and grapefruit and tomatoes and lots more will keep for the week without any trouble, unless you're someplace really hot and humid.
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