No refrigeration...your advice?

[Therapy]

[quote=imagine2frolic;148403

I also carry a household 2.1 cubicft. freezer.
[/quote]

What sort of current draw once it is all "ice"?

[imagine2frolic]

I run it off the inverter about 3 hours a day, and everything stays frozen. Says the max is 1.47 amp, but that is 110. I never really did the math, but with the wind generator, and moving from anchorage to anchorage I have had no problems yet. In 2 months I will leave for the Exumas with the 4 solar panels back on the boat, so there will be more help.

[lilpirate45]

I am in the market for a stove-top popcorn popper, and toaster, and came across this threat and decided to register. My husband and I have lived aboard for about 18yrs. and still love it. We gave up our permanent slip 2 yrs. ago and anchor out in the summer and winter at the dock. I didn't really think about living off the grid until we started anchoring out for longer periods, but now I'm needing to learn what I can and thinking that back to basics is going to be cheaper in many ways.
Eggs- you can use bees wax, those little blocks work great for coating the eggs, it is healthy, and lasts, and virtually no mess.
We use those plastic square milk containers and fill 3/4 to the top-they are square and they utilize space better.
I have been using powdered soup mixes by Bear Creek foods, they last a long time.
Powdered milk, neat trick my dad taught me when I was little,is to add a little vanilla to the milk mixture, taste better. Currently we have a regular full size house-hold frig, but we are in the process of getting a propane frig. since fuel here on the island is very expensive, just under $4.00gl.gas, Diesel is almost $5.00gl.
I recently discover a new product, it is called Gossner Milk, usually found by where the coffee creamers are. It doesn't need to be refrigerated until you open it, and they come in square containers.
here are a couple of sites that I've ordered from before, lots of great things.
www.survivalmall.com
Bulk Food Distributor, Wholesale Spices, Nuts, Chocolates and Candy Online
Discount Hunting Gear, Discount Hunting Boots, Discount Shoes, Discount Ammunition, Discount Ammo, Discount Boots, Military Surplus, Outdoor Gear At the Sportsman's Guide they have powdered eggs cheaper than anywhere.
Sportsman's Warehouse - Hunting, Fishing, Camping, Reloading, Gift Bar, Outerwear, Footwear I don't know you can order on line from these guys yet, but they are onlt on the west coast, but they are a lot cheaper than G.I joes, and have lots of things for just about anything, they may even give JI Joes a run for their money. We bought our propane stainless stove/oven from them for $150.00, it is for our smaller boat, and will work great for this application.
A friend of mine also taught me how to get fresh produce to last longer.
Salads, like lettuce,onion, carrots, just bout anything.
Lettuce, I separate the leaves(romaine) and rinse them in a colander, don't pat dry, just shake gently, lay out several paper towels, place leaves single layer as you roll them up, the water will be soaked up by the paper towels and still have a minimal amount of moisture, and won't get soggy, and mold. I've been able to keep lettuce to over 4 weeks, as long as you don't use a metal knife to cut them with, the metal turns the lettuce brown the next day or so. then you can place them into a gal. zip-lock bags, or the plastic bag they came in.
There is a book that talks about using news paper, but I don't like the black ink that rubs off into the food, but the book has many awesome tips. I will have to call my live-aboard friend and get the name of the book, it is a very thick book and costs about $80.00, but well worth it.
I need to go meat with a client but will be back later.
I'm looking forward to learning, and helping others if I can.
Great forum here,

[hellosailor]

Your Gossner Milk (I'm assuming that is a brand name?) sounds like Parmalat, an Italian company that is well established in the US market. They sell ultrapasteurized milk in "bricks", it is shelf-stable for months without refrigeration, has been on the US market for well over a decade, I think.

Nestle's also makes powdered WHOLE milk, in regular and high-fat versions, but not for the US market. For the central and south American markets, under various brands names like "Nido" and "Klim" (which is "milk" backwards!) and you'll pay extra for a bilingual label instead of the all-hispanic one. Imported into the US by many supermarkets in the "ethnic foods" section.

[Maren]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Seriously, I suggested we try a little and it was perfectly fine. I suspect the meat was so dry that it resembled beef jerky. All we did was rehydrate it.

It has to do with the water activity and the cooking method. So I would argue that you were pretty safe and had a good course of action; the fear-factor part not withstanding.

The dried meat makes it difficult, but not impossible for stuff to grow on it. The boiling water and cooking would kill pretty much anything remaining. The only real risk would be if it were poisoned before it were dried -- as in the quite heat stable and toxic byproduct of Clostridium botulinum, boutlin. But that's an obligate anaerobe so it wouldn't form with compromised seal and, you had cooked and dehydrated it prior to.

[Maren]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

The salmon quesiton is a difficult one. Fish can be tricky to preserve, but in fact follows the same rules as meat in my earlier post. I will look this up and address it in an email later on. I have books that detail the techniques, but I have to find the techniques for fish.

Might I suggest gravlax? It's quite easy to make, tastes wonderful and keeps fairly well (except for wanting to eat it).

[hellosailor]

How well will gravlax (saltes and sugared salmon, fwiw, similar to lox) keep all by itself at room temperature? Or would you have to pack in it in salt?

[Maren]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

How well will gravlax (saltes and sugared salmon, fwiw, similar to lox) keep all by itself at room temperature? Or would you have to pack in it in salt?

If you go by the USDA standards, you are taking a risk. Same goes for prosciutto, those marvelous unpasteurized cheeses and so on. So if you want to err on the side of caution, don’t do it. I’d also suggest you also don’t eat in most of the third world, shop for food anywhere outside the US or eat most anything at outdoor events. I don’t mean this as the USDA doesn’t know what they are doing, how this is just another example of the nanny state, etc. They are trying to ensure the welfare of the citizens and they are aware of the risks. But this runs right into the fact the older methods of food preservation do work pretty well. On the other hand, I know I’ve been food poisoned twice before and I don’t recommend it.

So this is what I see as the middle ground.

If I were a bit cautious I would make the gravlax, wrap it and keep it cool with a large chill pack and eat it on the boat within about three days.

If I were less so, I would make it. After there was now more water coming off, I would the either remove the spices and then repack in spices, or just add more. What you are doing here is akin to sponge. If you have a large enough sponge it will stay relatively dry, thereby lowering the water activity and water content. You will, however, be sacrificing a bit of texture and might need to rehydrate a bit prior to eating. But you should be able to go considerably longer up to a couple of weeks if you can keep it cool and dry. If you are hell bent on having preserving fish for a long time you would want to salt it, like salt cod. It may be brick hard prior to reconstituting, but it will keep for years. This is a continuum: fresh; moist and perishable; dry and relatively stable; desiccated and very stable.

To answer your question directly as asked, however, a few hours.

How do know this works? Think like a Viking for a bit. If you lived where fish were relatively plentiful but needed to save for the lean times, would you be doing it for three days from now or a month or longer? Probably longer. Gravlax, using the old definition of being packed in sugar and salt and then buried about a foot down, would last for months. The current method, less so, but it tastes better.

The biggest problem I’ve had with it lasting is people eating it.


Well, its long but at least it rambles

[lilpirate45]

I haven't heard of gravlax, but my husband has, he is norwegian. he said oh yeah another wierd one. I clicked on the link posted and read up on it. I'm not much for eating fermented things. Yes the Gossner milk, it is a brand name, comes in low fat or regular.
I've not heard of the Italian one(parmalat).Something my husband wants to find, is a recipe for rice milk, something that would be easy to make.
Thanks for the great link offthegridgirls web blog, I'll be there for hours learning. Just in the 2 days, I've learned a bit. I will pass this forum to my friends, if that is ok, they would love this site.

[hellosailor]

Maren-
Last time I checked with a Viking (well, MoonDog was about as close as they come in this century[g]) they didn't use gravlax to put up excess fish. Salt and sugar were expensive trade goods, out of reach for the common fisherman. They smoked the fish, or pickled it. Smoked fish will last an awful long time, ditto pickled. And somewhere in between the two, there's "salmon jerky" in the market today as well.

I'm probably over-conservative about food handling and food poisoning, but supposedly 100,000+ incidents of food poisoning are serious enough to be reported in the US every year, and being terribly ill for a couple of days could be a problem on a boat. Maybe a fatal problem, if it results in short crew, short sleep, and consequences. So...I'll stick to refrigerating gravlax. (Which I have had, and do enjoy.)

As my mother would say, defrosting poultry on the counter the old fashioned way, in violation of USDA guidelines, "But no one ever got sick..." Well, maybe. Maybe not. I'd rather not take the chance, when I've got other options.

[witzgall]

And here: Coleman Stirling 5726-750 Power Cooler / Freezer

Maybe they don't update their stock quantities on the website, or these are folks that drop ship everything, but worth a call.

[Maren]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Last time I checked with a Viking ... they didn't use gravlax to put up excess fish. Salt and sugar were expensive trade goods, out of reach for the common fisherman. ...

... supposedly 100,000+ incidents of food poisoning are serious enough to be reported in the US every year...

As my mother would say, defrosting poultry on the counter the old fashioned way, in violation of USDA guidelines, "But no one ever got sick..."

Lilpirate45: It isn’t fermented like it used to be.

Hellosailor: You have hit upon a topic which I find subtle and interesting: semantic change or change in meaning over time. For example ‘nice’ used mean ‘precise’ and often hard edged, not ‘pleasant’ and easy going as it does today.

In a similar manner Gravlax used to be fermented by burial (grav grave or buried; lax salmon). There other accounts of using dry sand. That old method would keep longer, up to months. Oh, and it reeked – did I mention that?

Excerpted from www.gourmettraveler.com.au: (I could only get this to display by cache) it a bit on the change in preperation

By the 18th-century gravlax was no longer fermented, notes Harold McGee in On Food and Cooking, simply salted and weighted for one to two days. It’s unclear when fresh dill became the standard pairing but McGee suggests replacing dill with pine needles for a taste of the old ways.

Not being a man of few words, why stop with gravlax and fail to address saltcod?

Salt cod (as klippfisk in Scandanavia or saltfiskur in Iceland) used to dried fish for the exact reason you mentioned, salt was expensive. The name klippfisk (‘cliff fish’ indicating where they were dried) lends credence to you point.

And yet today the term chiefly applies to what we think of as salt cod. As I recall, it was towards the latter 19th century salt was more reasonably obtained and so you would see cod packed in salt.

As for the 100,000 reported cases of food poisoning, I think most people don’t really know all that much about it and cases which are reported as food poisioning aren’t, and vice versa. Besides it doesn’t really matter how many other people in the world get food poisoning, just if you and the people who matter to you do.

Finally the part about your mom: I wouldn’t cook in a professional kitchen with all the liabilities involved like I would at home. After all, it’s cheaper to scrap something or defrost in water or a fridge than buy 20 or more ‘sorry for making you sick, get well soon’ cards. There is a risk as you point out.

But you can’t eliminate all risk. And I doubt you wear a helmet, pads, gloves, life vest, whistle, pen flair, strobe and so on for a day sail.

I’m not trying to make some sort of false dichotomy here of how you are either utterly caviler or totally risk adverse. This is a continuum and everyone picks their own place on it. But having spent a lot of time eating things I would prefer not to again (whole roasted birds, mice, stuffed chicken feet, other-wise decent food prepared in the least sanitary method possible and the occasional smelly identifiable dish which a slimy texture) I would feel comfortable with what I said above.

[hellosailor]

Maren, apparently the number I gave you for food poisoning is totally wrong. It is far too low from the statistics compiled by PROFESSIONALS here:

"An estimated 76 million cases of foodborne disease occur each year in the United States. The great majority of these cases are mild and cause symptoms for only a day or two. Some cases are more serious, and CDC estimates that there are 325,000 hospitalizations and 5,000 deaths related to foodborne diseases each year. The most severe cases tend to occur in the very old, the very young, those who have an illness already that reduces their immune system function, and in healthy people exposed to a very high dose of an organism."

source: CDC web site:
Disease Listing, Foodborne Illness, General Information | CDC Bacterial, Mycotic Diseases

Those estimates typically are based on reports from hospitals--not from the lay public with bellyaches.

I'm aware of salted cod, it is commonly available in "ethnic" and oriental markets in many US cities today, and it is often given credit for Portugal's success at becoming a global power long ago. That, and their navigators.

Perhaps there is an antifungal or antibacterial component in pine needles, as there is in many plant sources? I'm not sure I'd want to play with old fermented buried fish, in the old days if you got food poisoning you just died alone and were presumed lost when you didn't show up the next year. People forget how common deaths from all causes (i.e. childhood mortality, cholera, etc.) were.

[lilpirate45]

Just wanted to post what I said I would about a book.
it is called Offshore cruising encyclopedia by Steve and Linda Dashew.
I'll ask my mother-in-law about gravlax, since she is Norwegian.

[Maren]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Maren, apparently the number I gave you for food poisoning is totally wrong. It is far too low from the statistics compiled by PROFESSIONALS here:

"An estimated 76 million cases of foodborne disease occur each year in the United States. ...
source: CDC web site:
Disease Listing, Foodborne Illness, General Information | CDC Bacterial, Mycotic Diseases

I try to maintain both respect for the scientific community and a healthy sense of skepticism in general. I suspect you do too. So I’m actually quite happy with your wondering if what I’m writing passes the, um .... (what I hell; I can’t resist) sniff test.

But let me bring up a couple of points with all the references from the same webpage you linked:

1) 75 million cases a year in the US alone.

While it would be beneath the dignity of this forum to suggest there is any sort of vested interest on the part of the CDC, I personally would have a hard time saying that one in four Americans (75 million out of a 300m population) are food poisoned every year. I have no number that I purpose would be right -- frankly it isn’t my field. But as you quote, the numbers are an estimate.

2) It seems few food are safe. (Excerpted from "What foods are most associated with foodborne illness?")

• raw meat and poultry, raw eggs, unpasteurized milk, and raw shellfish. (ok that is definitely gravlax)

• Foods that mingle the products of many individual animals, such as bulk raw milk, pooled raw eggs, or ground beef, are particularly hazardous because a pathogen present in any one of the animals may contaminate the whole batch

• Fruits and vegetables consumed raw are a particular concern.* Washing can decrease but not eliminate contamination, so the consumers can do little to protect themselves.

• Alfalfa sprouts and other raw sprouts pose a particular challenge

• Unpasteurized fruit juice can also be contaminated

Don't forget about cross contamination ... at least rum, coffee and cigarettes are still good for me.

3) Trusting the professionals is a limited option for cruisers.

You can protect yourself first by choosing which restaurant to patronize. Restaurants are inspected by the local health department to make sure they are clean and have adequate kitchen facilities. Find out how restaurants did on their most recent inspections, and use that score to help guide your choice. In many jurisdictions, the latest inspection score is posted in the restaurant. Some restaurants have specifically trained their staff in principles of food safety. This is also good to know in deciding which restaurant to patronize.

If you are cruising that means most of the US is OK, as is Europe, Japan, Australia. And while a certain percentage of the Caribbean along Central and South America is OK, what do you do for the rest? Tour the kitchen ahead of time? Ask to see their last sanitation review report? Pass on eating out? Eat at US chain restaurants only. Or, assume risk? Personally I pick the latter as I want to do things like eat oysters on the beach in Puerto Escondito or street food in Manilla or with a family in Kabul. Stick with the safety guidelines and you'll miss out. I don't assume my choice is for everyone else.

I leave the thought of US-like (in terms of sanitation and service) restaurants and their costs as compared to local style restaurants in ellipsis

But in a way, this is somewhat moot point. If you really wanted to find out, experiment on the kids in the neighborhood. That's what I'm going to do!